Do away with Blue Flags??

[m1fcf]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87186 :

"Richard Branson has backed the call from Lotus boss Tony Fernandes to get rid of blue flags in grand prix racing."

Discuss!

[Power Bulge]

There are 2 elements to this: not forcing back markers to get out of the way, and (if you do) then how to make it happen.

For a team like Lotus who are towards the rear of the field, it is an easy claim to make. They DO lose a lot of time moving over. The precedent is in NASCAR, where drivers are allowed to race to stay on the same lap, hoping for a Safety car to gain a lot of time back. The problem is that overtaking in NASCAR is a darn sight easier to achieve than passing someone at, for example, Monte Carlo. Does anyone else remember the epic last 10 laps when Mansell tried everything? That will now be common place, with the whole field sat behind the last placed car for 2 hours - never going to happen

The other point is safety: if a back marker is allowed to deliberately block the leader, we will have a large increase in contact and larger accidents as a result, as the quicker cars attempt ever-increasingly desperate manoeuvres to get past. I don't think the drivers themselves will allow that to happen, but Fernandes hasn't thought it through - he will have his own cars taken out in those accidents and lose places anyway.

Team orders? Let the no2 driver through to take out the back marker and allow the no1 car through!!

Perhaps the thread should be more about how to make it happen - flags or technology?

[davyboy]

Interesting idea. It could certainly spice up the racing in F1. My only fear is that top teams could nobble certan smaller ones to impede some people lapping the field but not others... if you see what I mean. Blue flags will always be necessary in lower formulae where you have novices.

[calloforion]

So what happen's in the hyperthetical (sp?) final race of the season where Vettle needs to beat Hamilton to win the title. Hamilton is 6 or 7 seconds up the road when he comes across a Toro Rosso who is not obliged to let him pass but is more than happy to let a Red Bull pass. The blue flag rule is fair enough in my view. It is a (nearly) fair rule which does not discriminate as to who's the faster or slower car.

If Lotus or Virgin don't like it then they best get a faster car soon

[The Fat Clerk]

If Lotus or Virgin don't like it then they best get a faster car soon [/QUOTE]

Or get out and stop being a laughing stock

[SouthportFC Fan]

Perhaps they should ban yellow flags also. Oh how the great TV watching public would enjoy the extra spectacle of trackside marshals jumping clear of overtaking and crashing cars whilst trying to deal with another incident.

I'm beginning to see a plan develop here. What with medal system suggested by BCE and the extra spectacle of marshals lying injured on the circuit, we will be returning to the days of chariot racing and Ben Hur !!

Perhaps the FIA would also consider having trapdoors in the track surface for lions and tigers to leap out of to savage any unsuspecting personnel, either officials or drivers and blades fitted to the wheels of the cars so that overtaking will become easire through slicing away the sidewalls of an opponent's tyres.

And all in HDTV too. I can't wait !!!

[Tall Chris]

Originally Posted by SouthportFC Fan

Perhaps they should ban yellow flags also. Oh how the great TV watching public would enjoy the extra spectacle of trackside marshals jumping clear of overtaking and crashing cars whilst trying to deal with another incident.

I'm beginning to see a plan develop here. What with medal system suggested by BCE and the extra spectacle of marshals lying injured on the circuit, we will be returning to the days of chariot racing and Ben Hur !!

Perhaps the FIA would also consider having trapdoors in the track surface for lions and tigers to leap out of to savage any unsuspecting personnel, either officials or drivers and blades fitted to the wheels of the cars so that overtaking will become easire through slicing away the sidewalls of an opponent's tyres.

And all in HDTV too. I can't wait !!!

It was all quite plausible until you mentioned HDTV

[Guinness2702]

I've always thought blue flags go out way too early in F1, and with the mandatory allow the driver to pass rule, it is not something I like to see.

Keep the flags, get rid of the mandatory let-through.

[The Fat Clerk]

do away with slow cars - 107% rule

[Woolley]

Funny that. F1 changes the meaning of blue flags (messing it up for everything else) and then when it cause other problems they want to do away with them (messing it up for everything else).

Just go back to making them advisory so the marshals on the spot can notify the slower drivers to check their mirrors. Of course, that doesn't fit in with the FIA's flag marshals policy of 'anyone can do it' because you'll need flaggies who can read a race.

Just do away with F1 and lets have some proper motor-racing.

[Paul Newns]

The FIA invariably call blues too early on the radio. When I've been told to blue so and so, I've often thought, "it will be half a lap before he gets taken", and it usually is.

The comment has been made about having flaggies who can read races. Absolutely. Just like we do week in, week out. F1 shouldnt be any different. The problem is, some countries don't have skilled flaggies.

I agree that blues in F1 should return to being advisory, like everywhere else. The great drivers work traffic, carving through it (e.g. Senna and Schumacher) and use it to their advantage (e.g Prost) by putting a slower car between them and thir pursuer at a spot where getting passed is difficult.

[The STIG]

I'm sorry... Woolley has my vote

[PapaJuliet]

It's only F1 where a blue means "get out of the way". Everywhere else it means "look in your mirrors". (I paraphrase slightly.)

I think blue flags are necessary, particularly in events like this weekend's at Silverstone where speed differentials are so great. It gives the slower drivers some warning that a faster car is approaching.

What I think is wrong, is that in F1 it means you have to get out of the way. In other high level racing series, including IndyCar, the blue flag is used but is advisory. In IndyCar, if the back marker holds the faster car up for a certain length of time (used to be 3 laps) they could be warned but otherwise they are not.

This gives the opportunity for somebody who has a problem but it running at the same speed as the leader to try to make up time. In F1, if a driver has a problem and rejoins just before the leader, but is no slower than the leader and is not holding him up, he will still be blue flagged, as could potentially have happened to Vettel at this year's British GP.

So, keep the blue flags, ditch the "mandatory".

And since I've mentioned it... what about the speed differential? In the BritCar race we had the Aquila lapping (in the dry and before problems) in 1:54's and the Class 4 cars such as the Honda Jazz and the VW Golf lapping in, well, much slower. If these drivers can cope, in a much bigger field, sure the F1 drivers, the "best drivers in the world" can cope with cars which are more than 7% slower?

PJ

[Stuart H]

Originally Posted by The STIG

I'm sorry... Woolley has my vote

2'nd.

next the F1 teams will be asking for no marshal's next!!

[Lord Summerisle]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

do away with slow cars - 107% rule

At how many F1 races this year would cars have been excluded under this rule?

from wiki:
Had the rule been in place for the 2010 season, five drivers would have failed to qualify due to the rule: Karun Chandhok (six times), Bruno Senna (four times), Lucas di Grassi (three times), Sakon Yamamoto (three times), and Fernando Alonso (once) .

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

The comment has been made about having flaggies who can read races. Absolutely. Just like we do week in, week out. F1 shouldnt be any different. The problem is, some countries don't have skilled flaggies.

[conspiracy]Or are the rules like that because it means you don't need skilled flaggies[/conspiracy]

Originally Posted by PapaJuliet

It's only F1 where a blue means "get out of the way". Everywhere else it means "look in your mirrors".

Not that a lot of the drivers know that. How often do you hear some junior formula drivers (or even some clubmen) complaining that 'He'd been given a blue and didn't get out of the way'? Er, that would be because he doesn't need to.

Originally Posted by The STIG

I'm sorry... Woolley has my vote

Why thank you, you don't need to be sorry.

Actually, you probably do.

[dave vass]

Correct me if I'm wrong but even going back to the days when I used to observe at GP's, it got to the stage where flag marshals were told when to blue flag a certain car by race control by radio!
Why not just give all the drivers raceceivers, tell them what to do and let them get on with it!
That would free up all the flag marshals to go to Cadwell Park on the same weekend for the 750MC meeting, where they could do proper flagging!!!

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by PapaJuliet

It's only F1 where a blue means "get out of the way". Everywhere else it means "look in your mirrors". (I paraphrase slightly.)

I think blue flags are necessary, particularly in events like this weekend's at Silverstone where speed differentials are so great. It gives the slower drivers some warning that a faster car is approaching.

What I think is wrong, is that in F1 it means you have to get out of the way. In other high level racing series, including IndyCar, the blue flag is used but is advisory. In IndyCar, if the back marker holds the faster car up for a certain length of time (used to be 3 laps) they could be warned but otherwise they are not.

This gives the opportunity for somebody who has a problem but it running at the same speed as the leader to try to make up time. In F1, if a driver has a problem and rejoins just before the leader, but is no slower than the leader and is not holding him up, he will still be blue flagged, as could potentially have happened to Vettel at this year's British GP.

So, keep the blue flags, ditch the "mandatory".

And since I've mentioned it... what about the speed differential? In the BritCar race we had the Aquila lapping (in the dry and before problems) in 1:54's and the Class 4 cars such as the Honda Jazz and the VW Golf lapping in, well, much slower. If these drivers can cope, in a much bigger field, sure the F1 drivers, the "best drivers in the world" can cope with cars which are more than 7% slower?

PJ

Well said PJ, Can't add to that

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by PapaJuliet

It's only F1 where a blue means "get out of the way". Everywhere else it means "look in your mirrors". (I paraphrase slightly.)

V8Supercars here in Australia think the same way, actually they behave the same way as well

Richard Branson knows as much about motorsport marshalling as he does about airline computer check in systems. Just look at how his Virgin Blue (Australia) Check In system has been operating over the past 2 weeks down here

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vic...-1225929528129

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

do away with slow cars - 107% rule

That would make sod all difference - backmarkers would still get lapped about 3-4 times in the average F1 race - 107% equates to being lapped about every 14-15 laps, so what you really need is a 102% rule -which could get rid of most of the midfield as well

Having the '3 flags and move over rule' actually makes thing worse for the front runners in the long run as it means they have to pass the back markers more often during the race. Each time a back marker has to move over he loses between 3 and 10 seconds depending on the circumstances - by the time he has been lapped by half the field he has lost nearly another lap and the cycle starts all over again. This is made worse by Race Control calling for the Blue flag much too soon in many cases.

When its left up to the drivers to decide when and where to let the leader past - aided by good blue flagging of course - there seems to be much more co-operation from the back markers and it allows the back markers to minimise the impact it has on their lap times. OK - you still get the occasional uncooperative driver but there is always the sanction of a trip to see the likes of the Fat Clerk

[Power Bulge]

The other option would be the "push to pass" button used in a number of single seater championships. This might eliminate the problem of dirty air when leaders get behind a slower car, but you still have the prospect of dangerous overtaking when the boosts run out.

How about removing all the aero and using ordinary road tyres? A Ferrari Formula Ford ... then we'll see who the best driver is!!

Whatever you think of, it has to work in Monaco - traditionally the hardest place to overtake and very unforgiving when contact occurs

[Woolley]

How about just taking out all the fast cars? They seem to be the ones that cause all the problems...

[Dave Brand]

How about just getting rid of F1?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

How about just getting rid of F1?

You're just jumping on the bandwagon in the hope of being my running mate for FIA president (see post #10)

[R59]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Funny that. F1 changes the meaning of blue flags (messing it up for everything else) and then when it cause other problems they want to do away with them (messing it up for everything else).

Just go back to making them advisory so the marshals on the spot can notify the slower drivers to check their mirrors. Of course, that doesn't fit in with the FIA's flag marshals policy of 'anyone can do it' because you'll need flaggies who can read a race.

Just do away with F1 and lets have some proper motor-racing.