Formula Atlantic etc (was 'Chevron B29s') - Page 4

Chris Townsend · 7 May 2003, 07:40 (Ref:591999)

Bryan

I would love to see the 732 records - if only to compare and contrast to the F1Register books. I'll leave the fax on. The heart is holding up. And thank you for confirming dates on AU1.

Chris

Bryan Miller · 7 May 2003, 09:39 (Ref:592119)

Chris , trust you rec,d. 732 fax.
Sorry it is not as comprehensive as Modus or 74B , however it is still interesting in 732-9/15 , and it looks like -11 did not make it to Japan as Bill Gubelman seems to have run it all season in F2.

In A/S. Sept. 5 1975 p.59 for sale column have you been able to put a no. or identity to Alan Rollinsons car.?
Is it a genuine 74B or a lash up .??????

Chris Townsend · 7 May 2003, 18:00 (Ref:592636)

Bryan

Rollinson's car is a lash up. Probably the ex Coombs 722-45, which he raced twice, otherwise the ex Coulon 74B. Rollinson actually retired in 74 after racing the Coombs car and realising he was on a hiding to nothing.

Some of the gaps on 732, though I await correction and addition:
1: Works Beltoise [Mallory]; Stuck; occasional spare for Jarier -> 1976 John Calvert, tub then to Geoff Friswell, written off in practice accident at Gold Cup meeting Sept 76, which I witnessed, and replaced with a 742 tub.

2: Not known either this or 3 is the Hiromu Tanaka car
3: Not known perhaps Tanaka
4: Brambilla brothers, kept by them at least till 76 and used as hire car for Italian F2 races
5: Brambilla bros 1975: Max Bonin [France] at least until 76
6: Works Jarier
7 Works Coulon. This number given to Laurent Ferrier's car in 77 by F1R
11 was kept by Gubelmann at least until mid 76. He had a big accident at the Mallory hairpin with Mike Wilds and received bad head injuries. I don't think he ever raced again, and I don't know what happened to the car. It was quite a low speed accident, so I doubt that it was destroyed in the shunt.
14: Wheatcroft for Roger Williamson. 1975: Luis de Almenara

Interesting that you have 12 as Joliat's car. F1R ascribe this to Coulon from mid season and put Joliat in 16

Chris Townsend · 8 May 2003, 08:33 (Ref:593206)

Bryan

As those Chevron's seem to have developed into a general Atlantic/F2 thread I'm answering you on those 75Bs over here. The two cars to the USA, what numbers and to whom? I think that 75B-10 was Bertil Roos' car, and I think that all the real 75Bs went to N.America.

I've started a new thread for N.Zealand, begining at the begining with Bay Park, 77. Ultimately I want to do for Atlantics what's being done for F5000 on oldracingcars. To begin with that means being patchy because we're talking about a decade and a half of racing in six differnt countries at various times. But it does seem that we are quite close with NZ, and also with the 1974 British JP series.

Chris

Bryan Miller · 8 May 2003, 10:55 (Ref:593339)

Chris,
March 75B-8
Yellow Tub. no. 16 gearbox no. FT.200-1013
Grimaldi/Shierson
collected by Rapid Movements 17th. April 1975

However there is a hell of a lot more. This is the Dave Saunders car in N.Z. I will explain .
The current owner Howard Blight purchased car in Oz and on my insistence in official capacity he ran Dave Saunders.
History as told by Saunders,
Purchased by Saunders from March in 1976,date unspecified,to run in N.Z. Series.
I have in front of me a copy of N.Z. registration of motor vehicle [ even race cars in nz had this then], dated 10-11-77 at Henderson reg. plate no. I.G.4593.
Make March 1975.
Eng. No. DA276D.
Chassis No. 75B-8.
etc.etc.
Over page is transfer to Willowbank Motor Court[1975] ltd. L.M.V.D. at 554 Great King Street ,Dunedin.
Above ent. dated 5th. May 1981.
This I believe is Ross Cameron. N.Z. GUYS CAN YOU CONFIRM.????///
1984-1989 Ken Smith to Allan Champion to Ken Smith again .
Why not , he owned my Modus twice as well .
To Gerry Duyvestyn of Australia in Sept. 1989.
To Howaed Blight 29/8/1993.
I picked car up from Duyvestan,s home with Howard.
MORE MORE .
I soggested to Howard he get in touch with Shierson which he did .
Shierson advised his records had gone astray, however did advise that he always had his own cars from March with ch.no. 8 or 9 for his own use as opposed to customers cars.
This leads us to think it may be Villenuves 75 Atlantic car in Canada , but Howard will not claim till he knows definately.

2nd. car
March 77B-5
Nicholson Ford NME 080
Orange French Blue
Monocoque no. 773-16
gearbox no. Ft.200-1129
Doug Shierson
Dispatched 6th. December 1976.

Bryan Miller · 8 May 2003, 11:14 (Ref:593350)

I left something very important out , Saunders advised that at the 2nd. round at Pukekohe the car was very badly damaged and a new tub was purchased from John Thompson in the U.K.
new tub no.M772PU6.
Car then painted white.
Bryan. David and Armco does this still give us 2 entities for Saunders or the same car diff. colour etc.

Armco Bender · 8 May 2003, 11:33 (Ref:593372)

Yep I saw the Saunders car just after he crashed it,practising for the GP,he ran off the sweeper coming up to the start of the front straight,he hit a big fence post front on and the tub was split open like a peeled banana.That tub would have never been used again.I'm sure Saunders broke his leg/s badly.If my memory serves me right the car was white and it had sponsorship from someone like DTR television rentals,and it was No9.
The registration of the cars was mainly for tax purposes I think,not to do with them being driven on the road.They had an "E" Exempt Vehicle label on them,for off road use.

Bryan Miller · 8 May 2003, 11:58 (Ref:593387)

Armco , any ideas on whether he had an earlier car as per David McKinney's list or do you think it was the same car rebuilt as per my suggestion.????????
Bryan.

Chris Townsend · 8 May 2003, 12:13 (Ref:593401)

Bryan

Saunder's car: Described as a 75B at Bay Park 77. Car described as destroyed by Motoring News report of Pukekhoe 77. So that all tallies.
But at Bay Park I think that MN hinted that the car was a bitza, but they could have been wrong, and I'll double check. So let's call the Saunders car at Bay Park and Pukekhoe 75B-8 [oops wrong thread here] and hope that more comes up on the Shierson connection.

Allen, according to your USA journals who did Shierson run in 75 and any hints on car colour?
The only 75B that begins the season with a Nicholson motor is the car of Don Briedenbach. A picture would be good! [Is his car 75B-5?]

Chris

Bryan Miller · 8 May 2003, 12:28 (Ref:593422)

Chris, I think you will find Gilles Villenueve and at least on 1 occasion Price Cobb were Shierson drivers.
Bryan

Bryan Miller · 8 May 2003, 12:31 (Ref:593430)

Chris , the second car is 77B, not a 75B.
Bryan

Chris Townsend · 8 May 2003, 13:23 (Ref:593503)

Bryan

Thanks for the correction.77 Shierson ran Howdy Holmes and Bill Brack in N.America, and had two spare cars. However, he also runs a car in the S.African series for Rupert Keegan. This car is then used in ZA by John Gibb.
Given that three 77Bs appear in this series [Ian Scheckter; Roy Klomfass and Keegan] it might be that an early build date such as this was the Keegan car. I'll try and find a pic of the Keegan car. Is this car in Australia now? Do you know about any s.African connection

Chris

Bryan Miller · 9 May 2003, 00:32 (Ref:594103)

Chris, no only lucked on that 77B info , because before Kevin and I picked car up from Peter Finlay in Sydney , I asked Peter what the ch.no. was over the ph. Peter told me 77B-5 so I faxed D.R. and rec'd that reply.
When we arrived to pick car up a few days later , the first thing I went to look at was the pl. no. and saw 772-5 and asked Peter , who not realising the diff. said , it's always been known as a B in N.Z.

You should have seen Kevin's face drop.
I said pay the money , grab it and run , we will sort it out later.
Guess what, 4 years later we are still trying.???????

Armco Bender · 9 May 2003, 04:03 (Ref:594152)

Quote:

any ideas on whether he had an earlier car as per David McKinney's list or do you think it was the same car rebuilt as per my suggestion.????????

:confused: This is getting confusing,The car Saunders raced at Baypark would have certainally been the one he drove at Pukekohe the following weekend.I'd have to beleive Dave McKinney that it was a 74B because Dave would have gone around and seen the numbers I pressume.The car at Pukekohe(I unfortunately didnt get to BayPark that year) was definitely a 74 or 75 chassis,it certianally wasn't a 'new' model March(the 'newest' Marches in '77 were the 2 '76Bs) it was an updated older one.One would assume the car he raced in the '78 series was this car rebuilt with a new tub.It must have taken some time to rebuild,and I'm sure Saunders broke his leg/s in the crash so it wasn't raced again probably until the '78 series again.At the '78 Pukekohe race he only went about 50m before flipping the car upside down.It wasn't badly damaged in that crash,but I'm sure it was about then Saunders flagged away a racing career!.I'm pretty sure in '78 the car was white and unsponsored.Sorry to use pretty sure and think a lot,as all this was around 25 years ago it gets a little fuzzy thinking back that far.
I know my Father has super 8 movie film of the '77 and '78 series,and I'm pretty sure there is a view of the Saunders car after its '77 crash on a trailer in the paddock and it also has the tail end of the '78 roll over on it,I will try to get my hands on it and see if we can get some frames off it.

allenbrown · 9 May 2003, 18:18 (Ref:594799)

Hi

Don't know whether this helps but March 73B-17 was the March RX10B Can-Am car of Seann Burgess in 1965 and 1986. He bought it from a Joe Ostrowski of New Jersey in 1982. Joe had purchased it from the DRC Team who ran it in 1973/1974 for Bruce Macinnes and Ron Cohn. Seann has restored it as the #66 McInnes car but I'm not sure if that part of the identification is certain.

Allen

Bryan Miller · 10 May 2003, 23:25 (Ref:595781)

Chris ,
last night [sat.] I was trolling through my meagre 9 copies of A.S ,[other years Ihave virtually all] .
Just trying to assist on 73b ,you probably are aware of piece in A.S. ju.28 p31 which says Ken Bailey has the ex. Cyd Williams car from 1972 . Did this car become a 73B lookalike and was it new for Bailey or a rebirth on a 712 ?
Bryan.

Bryan Miller · 11 May 2003, 04:59 (Ref:595878)

Chris , I hope this helps , the car I mentioned above shoud be the car for sale Jan 10 74 with ugly Falconer bodywork , and still for sale May2 74, by Ken Bailey.
Meanwhile PAGE 56 A/S.April 25 74 , by Ken Baily is a 73B with std. bodywork and 8 races from new , built late 73.
Have we got 2 x Ken Baily / Bailey. ?????????????
Bryan.

Chris Townsend · 11 May 2003, 13:42 (Ref:596061)

Brian

No, there was only one Ken Bailey, and the history works out. The Cyd Williams 722 is 722-39 and this number is noted by Motoring News on its debut in Atlantic, along with 722-37 which is raced by Chris Oates. 722-37 goes to Baron Robertson in 73 and then John Leffler. 39 is sold to Bailey who used in F.Atlantic in UK in 73. The car was then sold to a guy called Phil Dowell who was killed testing it at Silverstone pre-season in '74. I've always presumed that the car was destroyed in this accident.

So, Bailey's 73B is a genuine model, ex Charles Lucas '73 season. I got a bit thrown by the advert for a March 722 in 1974, because it's got Bailey's name on it. However, the phone number, when you look at other ads, proves to be that of Mike Sullivan Racing. Sullivan had been racing 712M-11 [ex Jaussaud, ex colin Andrews. for Richard Robinson and Alan Jones, though he took to calling it a "722"]. I presume that this is Sullivan trying to sell that car with a photograph of someone elses! [though it might be that Sullivan had also bought the wreck from Dowell's widow to use for parts.]

Sullivan was selling because he was meant to be getting a "74B" built out of one of JAcques Coulon's 732 tubs. However, according to race reports it was the 722 which finished the 74 season, so presumably the cheque bounced on the "74B".

Bailey sold his 73B to Andy Rouse halfway through the 74 season and took over the works development Lola T360. That's why you have two adverts using pictures of Bailey cars at the same time!

Chris

Chris Townsend · 11 May 2003, 13:46 (Ref:596064)

If you want a real bitsa March get a load of this.
This is Jim Crawford's March 73B, run by SDC Racing in 1974

Built from spares at the SDC base by Crawford over the winter of 73-74. Crawford wrote the car off in September 74. However, March facilitated a rebuild. Crawford went to the last round of the John Player series with this car rebuilt with spares - including a new tub - for a total cost of £49!
Now what chassis number would that carry?

Chris

Bryan Miller · 11 May 2003, 22:59 (Ref:596429)

Chris, since were trading horror March stories , I have in front of me an invoice from March 15th. April 1977 to Gary Clare , inv. no. 079392 , staff sale , 1 x scrap tub , 30.00 UK. pds. plus V.A.T. of 2.40 , this is 77B-c2.
Beat that. Bryan.

Bryan Miller · 16 May 2003, 00:26 (Ref:600425)

Chris, A/S JUNE 20 74 P.5 , Mike Sullivan, now has two 722 , one with Falconer bodywork and other with Latest March bodywork. One was to be driven by Aust. Driver Mike Knight on Alan Jones recc. to replace him in team .
Kevin, recd. info from one of his previous owners also advising that Kevin may bump into in Aust. ANOTHER of his ex March cars over here .
The owner was John Mackinlay , and he advised in letter on B.M.W. LETTERHEAD ON 14 MAY 2003 , that the other car was a 742 and he sold it to a chap from B.M.W. in Australia .
This is my query car re. 742-U2 .
Bryan.

Bryan Miller · 17 May 2003, 13:00 (Ref:601721)

Chris, just found a reference to a Dick Barker at Oulton Pk. 31/3/72 in a BT.28 with a BDA? for the John Player F2 rd. is this a differnt car to the one used in 1971 by Belso/, which I think you said was - 35, only reason I ask is BT28-20 has been here for many years supposedly as ex A.I.R.O Alan McCully F3 .

Bryan Miller · 17 May 2003, 13:18 (Ref:601740)

Chris, I have the following race programmes,are you in need of any.
20/5/73 Silverstone Yellow Pages Atlantic.
27/10/74 Snerrerton Southern Organs Atl rd.
13/4/75 Silverstone John Player Atl .
19/7/75 British G.P. Atl. and F3
4/10/75 Southern Organs Oulton Pk.Atl. and F3.

Chris Townsend · 17 May 2003, 17:43 (Ref:601906)

Bryan

Belso in '71 uses BT28-35. This car had been run by Dick Barker in 1970 in F3 and early 71 in Atlantic. I've got contemporary reports that associate this chassis number to Barker in '71 and which say that it was a car run by David Cole late in 1969. [that would have been in F3].
Now F1R say that Belso ran this car at Mallory F2 in 1972 [presumably on the basis that they'd observed him running it the previous season] BUT Motoring News, which gives the chassis numbers for every car at the race and largely agrees with F1R, gives Belso BT28-8 [so he may have sold 35 by then and borrowed another car until his BT38 was ready.]

BT28-20. After selling 35 to Belso Barker gets another BT28 for the Atlantic season in '72. This is BT28-20. This number given by F1R and confirmed by Motoring News report.
I'd be suspicious of claims that this is an ex McCully AIRO car and you should ask for some hard evidence: contemporary reports on the car say that Barker had got it from Alan Joy and prior to that it had been run by Mike Stow and it was originally run by Mike Beuttler in F3.

I don't have a number for the chassis [F3 reports after 1970 rarely carry them] but the McCully AIRO car was run by Jonesy in 1971. I've then got a gap in the records until 1974 when a race report describes a car shared by Paul Butler and Evan Clements in libre races as ex Jones.
Now maybe the 'Alan Joy' I've got is really a misprinted Alan Jones - but who Mike Stow was, and whether he had anything to do with AIRO, I don't know. I'd ask a few questions: after all, we'd all like an ex Jones car, wouldn't we?

If you could fax the Atlantic pages from the programmes that would be great. I'll be out most of tomorrow and I'll try to remember to leave the fax on.

Chris

allenbrown · 17 May 2003, 21:54 (Ref:602136)

Hi guys

Anyone have any history on tub number 732/15. Bryan has told me where it is today but I'd appreciate any pointers to where it might have been before 1978. Do the March records mentioned here contain any reference to it?

Thanks

Allen