Red Bull Unhappy

[Casper]

I have wondered how long you can stuff people around before they bite back, escpecially those spending millions of their own money

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorspo...330-zqok3.html

It may be a strategy to get their own way but the FIA cannot afford to antagonise those who finance F1.

[JeremySmith]

Red Bull will stay in F1 as long as it suits their purpose and not a moment longer .

We can not afford more than one Ferrari ..

If Red Bull are unhappy they should pack up and leave, they won't be missed ..

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Red Bull will stay in F1 as long as it suits their purpose and not a moment longer .

We can not afford more than one Ferrari ..

If Red Bull are unhappy they should pack up and leave, they won't be missed ..

Jeez Jeremy!

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Jeez Jeremy!

I know it appears rather harsh, but I think Red Bull (not unlike other teams) are very self serving... And would leave in a flash if it was not working as a business model for them..

They have won everything for four seasons which is brilliant, however now it's another teams turn hopefully they will not dominate..

[Casper]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I know it appears rather harsh, but I think Red Bull (not unlike other teams) are very self serving... And would leave in a flash if it was not working as a business model for them..

They have won everything for four seasons which is brilliant, however now it's another teams turn hopefully they will not dominate..

You would not have to be a rocket scientist to work that out and if anyone else thinks otherwise they are dellusional. They are there for their own reasons and if anyone upsets those reasons they it would be reasonable to think they would bale out. Toyota did it, Honda did it so what is new in that?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I know it appears rather harsh, but I think Red Bull (not unlike other teams) are very self serving... And would leave in a flash if it was not working as a business model for them..

They have won everything for four seasons which is brilliant, however now it's another teams turn hopefully they will not dominate..

it does seem harsh but in truth it applies to ALL F1 teams, not just the Red Bulls and manufacturers like Fiat, Renault, Honda, and Mercedes Benz.

I actually think a lot of the 'anti Red Bull' sentiment is almost a reaction to the fact they have been so successful and have a relatively short history in the sport to date. Almost like a jealousy of the,

I cannot believe the amount of venom that seems to spew forth from some contributors towards RBR (and not Torro Rosso) on other forums I peruse occasionally for a look see.

The truth is Mr Mateschitz is really a dyed in wool enthusiast for motorsport.

His company spends way beyond the minimum required for a commercial return on their investment and motorsport is one of the adventure and/or extreme sports Red Bull have supported to create an image for their companies product.

Sports is important to Red Bull but so is the sporting aspect and if F1 stops being a 'sporting' theatre Red Bull, along with 50-80% of the other sponsors will walk away from it.
I had the wife of a friend I watched Malaysia with us make the comment "Where are all the sponsors? Most of the sidepod's have nothing on them and that's the best part of the car to advertise on...."

F1 is in more trouble than people realise, not because of the engine noise but a whole bunch of administrative issues that are affecting the very core of it's sporting character...
If it cannot run itself in a way that reflects the ideals that the world associates with true competitive sport it won't be just Red Bull who leave....

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

it does seem harsh but in truth it applies to ALL F1 teams, not just the Red Bulls and manufacturers like Fiat, Renault, Honda, and Mercedes Benz.

I actually think a lot of the 'anti Red Bull' sentiment is almost a reaction to the fact they have been so successful and have a relatively short history in the sport to date. Almost like a jealousy of the,

I cannot believe the amount of venom that seems to spew forth from some contributors towards RBR (and not Torro Rosso) on other forums I peruse occasionally for a look see.

The truth is Mr Mateschitz is really a dyed in wool enthusiast for motorsport.

His company spends way beyond the minimum required for a commercial return on their investment and motorsport is one of the adventure and/or extreme sports Red Bull have supported to create an image for their companies product.

Sports is important to Red Bull but so is the sporting aspect and if F1 stops being a 'sporting' theatre Red Bull, along with 50-80% of the other sponsors will walk away from it.
I had the wife of a friend I watched Malaysia with us make the comment "Where are all the sponsors? Most of the sidepod's have nothing on them and that's the best part of the car to advertise on...."

F1 is in more trouble than people realise, not because of the engine noise but a whole bunch of administrative issues that are affecting the very core of it's sporting character...
If it cannot run itself in a way that reflects the ideals that the world associates with true competitive sport it won't be just Red Bull who leave....

Great post T!

"The truth is Mr Mateschitz is really a dyed in wool enthusiast for motorsport."

The whole lot of the idiots running the sport should listen to what Mr Mateschitz has to say, take a long hard look at themselves and do what is best for the sport in general and F1 in particular!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Red Bull will stay in F1 as long as it suits their purpose and not a moment longer .

We can not afford more than one Ferrari ..

If Red Bull are unhappy they should pack up and leave, they won't be missed ..

And take two teams with them. If I was the boss I would shut both teams down and not sell. The FIA deserve a kick in the slats and that would definitely do the trick. What is the issue with Ferrari aprt from them thinking they own the series and should call the shots?

[miatanut]

So they've made the most massive technical changes in a couple decades, or more, and the cars are a second a lap slower at the early races.

If it's just a second a lap at the first races, it would not surprise me if by the end of the year, this year's cars are going faster than last year's. Lots of changes usually goes with a steep learning curve and unusually fast progress.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

And take two teams with them. If I was the boss I would shut both teams down and not sell. The FIA deserve a kick in the slats and that would definitely do the trick. What is the issue with Ferrari aprt from them thinking they own the series and should call the shots?

Teflonso?

[henners88]

Originally Posted by Casper

And take two teams with them. If I was the boss I would shut both teams down and not sell.

What and put a few thousand people out of a job?!
If Honda had done that back in 2008 a couple of my good friends would have been out of a job and I can't understand why anybody would call for that, even if its just to get a message to the FIA.

The best outcome should Red Bull decide to leave is to sell the team just like Jaguar did before them.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Red Bull will stay in F1 as long as it suits their purpose and not a moment longer .

We can not afford more than one Ferrari ..

If Red Bull are unhappy they should pack up and leave, they won't be missed ..

F1 should not be dictated to by anyone, if Ferrari had not been allowed to push people about then F1 would be better now, so perhaps the best think to do is get rid of the problem Ferrari needs F1 more than F1 needs Ferrari

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Red Bull will stay in F1 as long as it suits their purpose and not a moment longer .

We can not afford more than one Ferrari ..

If Red Bull are unhappy they should pack up and leave, they won't be missed ..

Originally Posted by b1ackcr0w

I think Mateschitz is playing a classic Piranha Club move. He knows very well that F1 requires sharp elbows to be successful, and he's just deploying a pair to protect his investment. Equally, I think if he did fold up his tent over this one episode, the damage to his brand would be massive. It would make the Red Bull brand seem petulant and unable to stay the course. I think this is brinkmanship. I suspect that he knows that he's unlikely to win this battle, and faced with that, is going try and capitalize on that for maximum political effect so that he has a greater chance of getting his way in future.

These two posts sum up my thoughts. I particularly like the "we can't afford more than one Ferrari" line!

Richard

[chillibowl]

i think the greater fear for F1 is if RB feels sufficiently ****ed off that they take their money, their global PR network, their expertise etc etc to a different series.

for example if RB decided Formula E was the future i think F1 would have a real crisis of confidence on its hands.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

These two posts sum up my thoughts. I particularly like the "we can't afford more than one Ferrari" line!

Richard

The truth is you can't really afford even the one Ferrari, but you cant afford him to leave either.
Red Bull is unlikely to leave F1 if there is still 'sporting character' but they will if that dies completely. And if it does die completely Ferrari will not be able to save you...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The truth is you can't really afford even the one Ferrari, but you cant afford him to leave either.
Red Bull is unlikely to leave F1 if there is still 'sporting character' but they will if that dies completely. And if it does die completely Ferrari will not be able to save you...

I get what you are saying, but I don't quite think things are as bad as you think with respect to "sporting character". There has been and will continue to be some level of nefarious manipulation within racing by sanction bodies and the regulatory writers. I think there is some odd stuff happening right now in WEC regarding balancing of energy available to the cars that is potentially a slap in the face of Audi (and I say this not being an Audi fan at all). I think that is likely much more "back room" than than anything that RBR might be thinking is going on in F1 today. In short, I don't think there is an attempt to take RBR down a notch by the FIA. They are being treated no better or worse than anyone else as best as I can tell.

My main point in agreeing with the "one Ferrari" above is really that we don't want another player thinking it "is" a Ferrari when it's not. I am not a Ferrari fan at all, but I freely admit their value to F1. They bring a huge amount of eyeballs to the sport. Both in ticket sales and TV viewership. They are unfortunately truly unique and of critical value to "F1 as a business", or at least how we know F1 today. And while Ferrari will occasionally whine and moan and also throw around whatever weight they have (and it is significant), they generally stick to the sport through thick and thin at the end of the day.

I think the problem with RBR is that they don't have a deep history in the sport and other than dumping decent money into two teams, nothing is particularly special about them other than that they have had relatively great success within the short period. I think that quick success has created effectively a large organizational ego (if you can assign an ego to an organization). Maybe the ego has manifested itself within various people within RBR (Mateschitz, Marko and maybe Horner) and it has bloated their opinion regarding self importance to the sport beyond reality.

If RBR was to take their money and go elsewhere, I expect the things that make RBR "special" today would remain. The engineering staff, drivers, etc. would disperse and go elsewhere. Imagine no RBR, but with Vettel and Newey split up and working elsewhere. Sounds quite interesting to me actually.

Frankly, I will have a much deeper respect for RBR if they were to have to struggle through a season or two of poor results while still enjoying a wealth of money (Mateschitz) and talent (Newey, Vettel, etc.). Act like professionals, fight back and come out the other side as winners. My God think of the recent struggles of Williams. They don't have the resources of RBR, but I have the utmost respect for that team for continuing to pound away at trying to win.

The fact that things just haven't gone RBR's way a slight bit (we are only two races in) they threaten to leave the sport? It does nothing but leave a sour taste in my mouth. Now the saber rattling might just be them throwing their weight around. I hope that is the case, but if it really is ego problems, then I say pull the trigger now and don't tease us.

Richard

[chillibowl]

a couple of things that i would disagree with and possible rant alert!

RB's involvement in F1 and open wheel racing goes back further then them acquiring 2 teams.

their involvement extends beyond just running two teams through is young driver programs. i dont have any numbers but during their tenure they seem like they have helped more drivers in their careers then any other of the young driver programs out there.

they did struggle for several years as they built up Milton Keynes and then they started winning

they represent one of the only affordable consumer products being sold by an f1 team or its sponsor on the grid and have a bigger share of the 18-35 market then any other brand in f1. if they leave what is F1 selling?

if you ask any person under 35 which brand is more synonymous with sport im going to say 9 out of 10 would pick RB over Ferrari.

if RB left then in all likelihood its a an investment banking conglomerate that comes in to take their slots. for me i would rather another team that thinks its bigger than it is over anything the newcomers (with their complete lack of history) would bring.

hospitality at any race track is better served by RB then it is by Ferrari (or any other team for that matter). RB is for the people.

F1 isnt even bigger than its promoter let alone bigger than the team that has won 4 in a row.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I get what you are saying, but I don't quite think things are as bad as you think with respect to "sporting character". There has been and will continue to be some level of nefarious manipulation within racing by sanction bodies and the regulatory writers. I think there is some odd stuff happening right now in WEC regarding balancing of energy available to the cars that is potentially a slap in the face of Audi (and I say this not being an Audi fan at all). I think that is likely much more "back room" than than anything that RBR might be thinking is going on in F1 today. In short, I don't think there is an attempt to take RBR down a notch by the FIA. They are being treated no better or worse than anyone else as best as I can tell.

My main point in agreeing with the "one Ferrari" above is really that we don't want another player thinking it "is" a Ferrari when it's not. I am not a Ferrari fan at all, but I freely admit their value to F1. They bring a huge amount of eyeballs to the sport. Both in ticket sales and TV viewership. They are unfortunately truly unique and of critical value to "F1 as a business", or at least how we know F1 today. And while Ferrari will occasionally whine and moan and also throw around whatever weight they have (and it is significant), they generally stick to the sport through thick and thin at the end of the day.

I think the problem with RBR is that they don't have a deep history in the sport and other than dumping decent money into two teams, nothing is particularly special about them other than that they have had relatively great success within the short period. I think that quick success has created effectively a large organizational ego (if you can assign an ego to an organization). Maybe the ego has manifested itself within various people within RBR (Mateschitz, Marko and maybe Horner) and it has bloated their opinion regarding self importance to the sport beyond reality.

If RBR was to take their money and go elsewhere, I expect the things that make RBR "special" today would remain. The engineering staff, drivers, etc. would disperse and go elsewhere. Imagine no RBR, but with Vettel and Newey split up and working elsewhere. Sounds quite interesting to me actually.

Frankly, I will have a much deeper respect for RBR if they were to have to struggle through a season or two of poor results while still enjoying a wealth of money (Mateschitz) and talent (Newey, Vettel, etc.). Act like professionals, fight back and come out the other side as winners. My God think of the recent struggles of Williams. They don't have the resources of RBR, but I have the utmost respect for that team for continuing to pound away at trying to win.

The fact that things just haven't gone RBR's way a slight bit (we are only two races in) they threaten to leave the sport? It does nothing but leave a sour taste in my mouth. Now the saber rattling might just be them throwing their weight around. I hope that is the case, but if it really is ego problems, then I say pull the trigger now and don't tease us.

Richard

Oh I don't think RBR will leave. I think this will get sorted out whatever way and they will decide to stay.
And while I agree that Ferrari is something special from a historical perspective and that the general public perception is an asset to the sport, I think they play on it a bit too much and that some of the concessions made to them are out of order.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I get what you are saying, but I don't quite think things are as bad as you think with respect to "sporting character". There has been and will continue to be some level of nefarious manipulation within racing by sanction bodies and the regulatory writers. I think there is some odd stuff happening right now in WEC regarding balancing of energy available to the cars that is potentially a slap in the face of Audi (and I say this not being an Audi fan at all). I think that is likely much more "back room" than than anything that RBR might be thinking is going on in F1 today. In short, I don't think there is an attempt to take RBR down a notch by the FIA. They are being treated no better or worse than anyone else as best as I can tell.

I think it is indeed "nefarious manipulation" that RBR is railing against.

For the record too, I believe that RBR would be only too happy to have some of the other teams more competitive and beating them on merit.
It is good for the interest in the sport and good for their business.

I think that Mercedes are doing an awesome job of getting on the page, and nobody needs or wants the sanctioning body manipulating results, it is bad, very bad for everyone and diminishes everything in the sport.

Suggesting that RBR get sloppy, sit on their hands and allow themselves to get beaten in order to gain respect is just sad.

Ferrari to me, are just one of the big four teams no more or less important than the others.
The thought that they are treated differently from the others is just plain unsporting, wrong and again bad for the sport!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Do I think something is wrong with the entire fuel sensor strategy as defined in the rules today? Yes. Do I think that some teams may perform better or worse due to some amount of randomness caused by sensor variability? Yes. Do I think there are a number of random factors that impact race results? Yes. Do I think the issues RBR bring up is being used to purposefully manipulate race results? No. Could they be used to manipulate the results? Yes (Along with a multitude of other ways that are not new).

Well then I guess we can understand why RBR feels victimized when they are disqualified on the basis of evidence furnished off a faulty sensor that was displaying "drifting" readings during the race.
Convenient when you think that RBR and F1 in general has been criticized for the fact that RBR has won the championship for the last 4 years.
This dominance is the fault of the competition not RBR!
This is further exacerbated by the double points being awarded in the last race.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Frankly, I will have a much deeper respect for RBR if they were to have to struggle through a season or two of poor results while still enjoying a wealth of money (Mateschitz) and talent (Newey, Vettel, etc.). Act like professionals, fight back and come out the other side as winners. My God think of the recent struggles of Williams. They don't have the resources of RBR, but I have the utmost respect for that team for continuing to pound away at trying to win.

The fact that things just haven't gone RBR's way a slight bit (we are only two races in) they threaten to leave the sport? It does nothing but leave a sour taste in my mouth. Now the saber rattling might just be them throwing their weight around. I hope that is the case, but if it really is ego problems, then I say pull the trigger now and don't tease us.

Richard

Given that RBR have managed to establish the team to be beaten, this seems to imply that they should sit on their laurels and let it all slip in order that they could establish your respect by coming from behind again!


Williams, to my way of thinking have created their own problems through not recognizing and rewarding the talent that has gone through their hands.
They seemed to be about making Frank and Patrick rich and investing in property.
They treated a number of drivers particularly very shabbily, and were largely the architects of their own problems.

Revolving door employers.

[b1ackcr0w]

I think Mateschitz is playing a classic Piranha Club move. He knows very well that F1 requires sharp elbows to be successful, and he's just deploying a pair to protect his investment. Equally, I think if he did fold up his tent over this one episode, the damage to his brand would be massive. It would make the Red Bull brand seem petulant and unable to stay the course. I think this is brinkmanship. I suspect that he knows that he's unlikely to win this battle, and faced with that, is going try and capitalize on that for maximum political effect so that he has a greater chance of getting his way in future.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by b1ackcr0w

I think Mateschitz is playing a classic Piranha Club move. He knows very well that F1 requires sharp elbows to be successful, and he's just deploying a pair to protect his investment. Equally, I think if he did fold up his tent over this one episode, the damage to his brand would be massive. It would make the Red Bull brand seem petulant and unable to stay the course. I think this is brinkmanship. I suspect that he knows that he's unlikely to win this battle, and faced with that, is going try and capitalize on that for maximum political effect so that he has a greater chance of getting his way in future.

You and I would think that way but the movers and shakers of this world take a different view. RB will crank up the PR and spin machine and by the time they are finished the FIA will be the bully and RB the down trodden victims. The spin and PR have already started in case you haven't noticed and F1 have got a lot more to lose than RB. Interesting times ahead me thinks. RB will win in the end, either they get their own way or F1 are without two teams if they carry out their threat.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Casper

You and I would think that way but the movers and shakers of this world take a different view. RB will crank up the PR and spin machine and by the time they are finished the FIA will be the bully and RB the down trodden victims. The spin and PR have already started in case you haven't noticed and F1 have got a lot more to lose than RB. Interesting times ahead me thinks. RB will win in the end, either they get their own way or F1 are without two teams if they carry out their threat.

Some people already think the FIA are the bullies.
That comes from trying to force an issue that in some peoples eyes is inappropriate for a sporting regulatory body.
when I watched Malaysia with people who are not motorsport people they were vocal in their disapproval in some actions from a sporting point of view.

This is going to get worse, not better, given the present direction in the sport.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by b1ackcr0w

I think Mateschitz is playing a classic Piranha Club move. He knows very well that F1 requires sharp elbows to be successful, and he's just deploying a pair to protect his investment. Equally, I think if he did fold up his tent over this one episode, the damage to his brand would be massive. It would make the Red Bull brand seem petulant and unable to stay the course. I think this is brinkmanship. I suspect that he knows that he's unlikely to win this battle, and faced with that, is going try and capitalize on that for maximum political effect so that he has a greater chance of getting his way in future.

+1

[Knowlesy]

Maybe if he moans enough then they will change things around to benefit his team again.