Red Bull Unhappy

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by wnut

You're absolutely right, but how many people will be watching Mercedes walk off into the distance at 2 seconds a lap for 3 years?

almost exactly the same number that watched RBR for 4 years,
plus all the people that love seeing arrogance put in its place
plus all the people that like to see two top racers race each other without team orders
= quite a lot, actually

[wnut]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

almost exactly the same number that watched RBR for 4 years

Touché!


Oh well I suppose their drivers are more evenly matched than RBRs were!

[chillibowl]

out of curiosity, how long to you guys think a team should be able to keep their advantage before the rules get changed to either remove the advantage or let the other teams catch up?

1 race, 10 races, 1 season, forever?

for me i would be somewhere around the half way mark of a season although i can see why RD would want the advantage to last for as long as it takes for his team to find a way to capitalize on it.

and it serves Merc interests as well for allowing the other top teams back in because at some point in the future they might find themselves at a disadvantage and needed a rule tweak themselves. let them have enough races to secure a strong lead in the WCC and then open the engines regs up for improvement.

F1 is so shortsighted and motivated by only by self interest and this is why i miss the input of Whitmarsh's pragmatism.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

out of curiosity, how long to you guys think a team should be able to keep their advantage before the rules get changed to either remove the advantage or let the other teams catch up?

1 race, 10 races, 1 season, forever?

Given freezes being placed on development and limited testing, the question (and how F1 is setup today) makes me think of patent/copyright law. Basically how long should a given team enjoy the benefits of a winning solution?

To directly answer your question, I think nobody should be forced to give up an advantage, but others should be free to catch up. So forever is out of the question. Ultimately how long is then up to the regulations and budgets.

(warning cost cap soapbox)...

Ignoring the current rules, but also trying not ignoring economic realities, I would like to see cost caps (I know that is a separate thread/argument regarding viability). In an ideal world they would not freeze development and teams would be free to do as they please (dev and testing), but all under cost caps. That all sounds counter intuitive (expensive dev and testing + caps), but it just means you have to budget wisely for contingencies. Maybe you could implement a "break glass in case of emergency" exceptions that allows teams to go beyond the cap, but they only get to do that once every three years or something like that. This also implies a stable rule set that doesn't bust the bank each year (i.e. totally new regs are expensive)

In my hypothetical world, Ferrari and Renault could be working right now on a Mercedes style turbo (assuming that is the secret sauce to the success of the Mercedes engine). But they would have either left enough money in their budget to allow for that large of redesign mid-season, or maybe they would have to access their emergency money. It might take them a few races for those changes to show up, but likely before the end of the season you would not see 2+ second per lap advantages over the rest of the field. Mercedes would still have a benefit for however long it takes the other teams to catch up. And in a capped, but open system, nothing would prevent Mercedes from continuing to develop as well assuming they have the budget!

While staff would fall under caps, putting together a good team (good management practices, picking the right people, esprit de corps, etc.) will also allow some teams to rise above the others in a cost capped world. Smart ideas are free if you just have the right people.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Ignoring the current rules, but also trying not ignoring economic realities, I would like to see cost caps (I know that is a separate thread/argument regarding viability). In an ideal world they would not freeze development and teams would be free to do as they please (dev and testing), but all under cost caps.

that would be my ideal as well

also particularly agree with the point that while the other teams are catching up, Merc still maintains an advantage as they can continue to push forward.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

While staff would fall under caps, putting together a good team (good management practices, picking the right people, esprit de corps, etc.) will also allow some teams to rise above the others in a cost capped world. Smart ideas are free if you just have the right people.

Richard

This is getting very prescriptive and Orwellian!

Just learn how to attract the funds you need!

[gomick]

When is Ricciardo's appeal being heard?

[mikuni]

Today, the 14th of April in Paris I believe.

[wolfhound]

Will this thread need to be changed to 'Red Bull Happy' later?

[Aysedasi]

Maybe.

Maybe Red Bull Even More Unhappy.....?

[wolfhound]

Some I think we are going to get a result that will be a bit grey with no side winning the case fully as in that with Mercedes last year.

[gomick]

Well, I hope Ricciardo gets his points back & Red Bull get fined & lose there constructor points

[Mike Harte]

Bet that Red Bull are feeling even less loved this evening, what with everybody (well, half of them, anyway) picking on them. Lotus, Mercedes, Williams, McLaren and Force India joined forces with the FIA to try to give RBR a good dressing down at the appeal hearing.

Mercedes' lawyer, on behalf of his and the other teams mentioned, called for the stewards' penalty to stand, and in addition that, at the very least, a suspended race ban be imposed, as happened in the case against BAR-Honda in 2005 (I think that they also received a two race ban). They want this implemented becaues they don't trust RBR to not repeat this "offence", so want something hanging over their heads.

The FIA stated that, in their opinion, Red Bull had not offered any defence.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Bet that Red Bull are feeling even less loved this evening, what with everybody (well, half of them, anyway) picking on them. Lotus, Mercedes, Williams, McLaren and Force India joined forces with the FIA to try to give RBR a good dressing down at the appeal hearing.

Mercedes' lawyer, on behalf of his and the other teams mentioned, called for the stewards' penalty to stand, and in addition that, at the very least, a suspended race ban be imposed, as happened in the case against BAR-Honda in 2005 (I think that they also received a two race ban). They want this implemented becaues they don't trust RBR to not repeat this "offence", so want something hanging over their heads.

The FIA stated that, in their opinion, Red Bull had not offered any defence.

I thought this was between RBR and the FIA, what the hell is Mercedes' lawyer doing at a disciplinary appeal??!!

P.S. Not that any of those impartial citizens of F1 would have any interest in seeing the second place getter at a GP stay disqualified!

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

I thought this was between RBR and the FIA, what the hell is Mercedes' lawyer doing at a disciplinary appeal??!!

P.S. Not that any of those impartial citizens of F1 would have any interest in seeing the second place getter at a GP stay disqualified!

Interested parties, which all the competitor teams are, are permitted to attend these appeals as the outcome may affect them, whether it be in the past, present or the future.

Other teams were represented at the BAR-Honda appeal, and I believe that every one of the top teams were represented by counsel at the McLaren spygate hearing, and that they all had an opportunity to speak. I can't, now, remember if they did or not.

[GT6]

With cost cutting an important issue in F1 and cost caps imposed on teams perhaps the legal cost of teams could be capped at say 1 dollar a season, i think that will make everyone but the lawyers happy

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by wnut

This is getting very prescriptive and Orwellian!

Just learn how to attract the funds you need!

That may be easier said than done.
F1 needs to be a healthy competition if it is to maintain the level of funding and financial wealth and public attention that it has attracted over the last thirty years.
having a few wealthy teams and the rest scratching was good enough in the first decade through to 1960 but then in the following decade the breadth of competition increased and accelerated towards the end of the 60's after advertising was allowed.

Right now the world economy has some constraints, spending habits and advertising practice has changed in line with a new demographic and a change in general public wealth and spending habits.

The increasing costs are also separating the have's from the have not's. If you have 1 or two dominant teams they get the lions share of the funding and the others pick up the crumbs. The bottom half of the field have never been this needy financially for last thirty or forty years.

[speedreader]

Does anyone else find it a little ironic that of all the other teams represented in the F1 championship, the most vocal of them trying to ensure the appeal is not upheld is the very same team that caused the last big scandal with legal / illegal tyre testing...

[Aysedasi]

No not really. This is F1, after all.......

[wolfhound]

Red Bull now very unhappy they just lost their appeal.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113461

[321Go]

FIA decision in full

Not surprised. If the decision was over turned, this would have dragged on and on by the other teams appealing.

Time to go racing again.

[GT6]

As expected then

[Flavio Galtieri]

Got it right.

Thank heavens for that! Now we can get on with the season.

I'm sick to death with RBR moaning all the time, tyres last year, fuel flow meters this!

They should just get on with it. Nobody likes to see a big boy cry.

[Pingguest]

I am very interested in the complete text of the decision, that will be published later this week.

[Aysedasi]

Disappointed for Daniel, but not in the least for Red Bull.....