Stoner, Rossi and the "Crap" Ducati

[gomick]

Originally Posted by chunder

Rossi is mcomiong to the end of his career, why should he take the risks, he has hjad a scare with the leg break and shoulder, why bother really?

Because he is getting paid millions perhaps?

[chunder]

To be fair Gom, he was getting paid millions in 2001 or 2002. He has been the biggest earner in MotoGP for over a decade so really he was taking risks and pushing to the max even back then. These guys race for glory not money, no matter who they are at the top level, they get paid for that. Doohan at the end of his carer was getting paid more than most F1 drivers.

I think he has slowed down a bit, he isn't prepared to push when he knows he can't win. If that makes him less of a rider...so be it.

But that many world titles, wins and winning titles on two bikes and in every class means he will always be the GOAT. toner had his time in 125 and 250 and didnt win titles or that ma ny races in comparison, OK maybe no on the best bike, but neither was Aoyama, Dovi, Harada et al.

It does sadden me that he is unable seemingly to sort the bike, but it just proves that he can't ride EVERYTHING quickly. Stoner maybe can which gives him an advantage of sorts, but I would still bet that on equal equipment Rossi would be more ruthless, calculating and better at riding a bike on worn tyres. Maybe he would stil get beat, but those facts remain

It is a fascinating idea that either Rossi can't pinpoint the issue or Ducati cant build a bike that helps. I am fairly sure it's the latter with a bit of the former maybe 20/80.

[jhansen]

Rossi needs a bike that he can ride agressively on the brakes and at corner entry. That is where he has always won races. Especially in the later stages when the tires are going off.

Stoner is epic at getting off the corner and using the throttle. Hence why he can manage with less traction control in comparison to other riders on the same bike.

Two different styles. I think Rossi has had better race craft, at least up till now. Stoner is learning though, now that he's on a bike he doesn't have to push to the limit all of the time. Hayden said at Indy that he's never seen Stoner ride this smart. And I think that's true. He's winning when he can, but more importantly he is taking race wins or heaps of points when perhaps he isn't on top form. Lethal.

And really, talking about who was on the best bike at whatever point, and how it helped them win is silly. Most championships are won on the best bike. The only time it's interesting is when a rider wins on not the best bike, or doesn't win while on the best bike. That's not really the case in this disucssion.

[chunder]

The last time riders won titles when not on the best bikes was perhaps the 500 era, or maybe Rossi in 2004 on the Yamaha. there is no doubt in my ind that Gibernau and Biaggi were on quicker Honda's than him that year, but he was so determined to win it!

Maybe even Hayden on his win, as he rode a sort of bitza bike.

Roberts in 2000 was certainly on the best bike at the start of the year, but not the quickest.

Rainey won at least two world titles on an inferior YZR500 aswell.

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by chunder

I find it sad people are so eager to put the boot in, yes Stoner has made him look a chump, but do you think Rossi wouldnt be dominating too on that Honda, and more importantly, do you think Stoner would be winning on that Duke this year? Smehow I think not.

Appoligies if you think I was being rude. It's just I don't see the lower classes as much of a bearing when discussing riders abilities on MotoGP bikes. Do you think, Lawson, Rainey, Gardener, Doohan, Schwantz etc are not qualified to comment on MotoGP racing because they didn't race/win in the lower level classes ???

I'd say yes to both these 2 questions. I think Rossi would be at least as dominate as Casey if Stoner wasn't on the same bike, they be splitting wins if they were in the same team. But I also think that Casey would have won a race or 2 on the Ducati. Like last year he would win a couple of races but th bike wouldn't be good enough to challenge for the title.

I also agree with jhansen that now he's on a bike that is easier to ride Casey is learning to ride with his head simply because he doesn't have to push the bike to the edge to make it go fast. He can ride at 8/9 10ths for most of a race, push for 10/10ths for a couple of laps to break the field and win, just as Rossi has done for most of his carreer

[chunder]

OK my point about lower classes riders is this; in the 60/70's it was common for riders to ride more than one class. at least 350 and 500 perhaps. That went away with the advent of the rear wheel spin style brought in by Roberts. The 250 style of guys like Sarron, de Radigues, Garriga was frowned upon and proved to not be the way, hence the arrival of Rainey, Schwantz, Magee, Gardner, Doohan, mainly superbike men yes?

Then the styles changed again, tyres improved so the 250 style was able to perform again, ushered in bu the likes of Rossi, Biaggi etc. So now, that scale of 125/250/GP is THE established way to get to the top.

There are exceptions like Edwards, Spies, Toseland Ellison etc, but they are not winners.

My reason for comparing Stoner with |Rossi was they both went 125/250/GP and though Stones was quikc in the lower stuff Rossi utterly dominated, meaning he knoew how to win chgampionships and get a tea around him.

Stoner admits he felt Ducati were sometime s not with him, Rossi would never allow that, one small example

[Dani Filth]

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

. But I also think that Casey would have won a race or 2 on the Ducati. Like last year he would win a couple of races

and this requires a bit of examples .. pick one/two of the GPs we had so far
and keep in mind you'd also have Rossi on a Yamaha or Honda againts Stoner on the Ducati. ..
i'm still scratching my head

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by chunder

Maybe even Hayden on his win, as he rode a sort of bitza bike.

OMFG!!!!!

Scuse expression, but that was surely the bigest travesty of all time....
Rossi had 2 races scuppered by tyre issues, and I definitely remember Le Mans being an engine failure, but was there another mechanical retirement?

Please... Hayden has only proved successful around Laguna Seca. Even Assen that year was a lucky win as Colin Edwards seized defeat from the jaws of victory there.. 3 victories for the Kentucky kid...

In my opinion, Rossi was complacent in 06 because he didn't respect Hayden, with some justification to be honest, but still.
2007 no-one was going to beat Bridgestone.
2008 and 2009 normal service resumed.

But surely the significant thing in those seasons was Pedrosa, Stoner and Lorenzo claiming Rossi was too aggressive in his racing. They made me laugh when they claimed that, shows how MotoGP has changed in the last 10 years. What would these kids have made of Biaggi elbowing Rossi onto the grass at 190mph at Suzuka.

I don't doubt Stoner is a great talent, and I don't doubt Rossi has slowed a little, but if had the chance to win, he would elevate himself as all greats do.
Has he fully recovered from the surgery yet or is he still carrying an injury?

If Ducati is on a par with the new regs next year, it may prove to be a classic season, I certainly hope so, because as Rossi proved last year whilst riding injured, he could still beat Lorenzo

[chunder]

Agreed, Rossi had a very unlucky year that year, but what are you saying then, that Roberts didnt deserve to win in 2000 too just because he was on a slower bike?

it takes a lot more than quick bikes to win championships, sure Nicky lucked into it a bit, but he was in the right place to win it, Rossi was unlucky yes, but so was Hayden, the Estoril thing was outragous! He was riding a bike that only his team helped with, Puig managed to get Pedrosa all the new stuff, it was a travesty really ater Nicky pu so much time ino that bike.

As for the Rossi/Biaggi thing, to be honest, watch Closer, "that wasnt a rivalry at all, he got him beat before he even gets there" The words of the racing God himself Wayne Rainey. If you think that was rivalry friend, you need to watch some older racing!

[Dani Filth]

was in it called Faster actually ??

[chunder]

Sorry yes, the two DVD box one is a valuable buy for anyone, can probably get for naff all these days

[blovell]

Its a sham e to see such talent ride a bike un capable to perform well

[wnut]

Wet racing is always considered the great leveller in racing.

So how do we account for the fact that Stoner is freakishly good in the wet, and Rossi is invariably nowhere?

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by wnut

Wet racing is always considered the great leveller in racing.

So how do we account for the fact that Stoner is freakishly good in the wet, and Rossi is invariably nowhere?

who is 'we'?
you start...

[Dani Filth]

invariably nowhere???????????????
no really

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by wnut

Wet racing is always considered the great leveller in racing.

So how do we account for the fact that Stoner is freakishly good in the wet, and Rossi is invariably nowhere?

i'd say it just follows that the guy that rides in the dry right on the raged edge using the least amount traction control would be good in the wet

[wnut]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

i'd say it just follows that the guy that rides in the dry right on the raged edge using the least amount traction control would be good in the wet

Okay now that we have established the above, where are you going to have to ride if your bike is inferior to the other bikes - the ragged edge.

When did Rossi ever have a sub standard bike?
He has always had one of the best bikes in the paddock, yes he is good, but he is nowhere near Stoner.

[jhansen]

Since when was Rossi pants in the rain?

Originally Posted by wnut

When did Rossi ever have a sub standard bike?
He has always had one of the best bikes in the paddock, yes he is good, but he is nowhere near Stoner.

The 2004 M1 started off not so great, but ended up being class of the field. He certainly had a hand in that.

[mac]

Originally Posted by wnut

Wet racing is always considered the great leveller in racing.

So how do we account for the fact that Stoner is freakishly good in the wet, and Rossi is invariably nowhere?

Does this mean that Chris Vermuelen is the best rider in the world!?

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by mac

Does this mean that Chris Vermuelen is the best rider in the world!?

LoL!

[chunder]

Or, wait for it, Anthony West! lol

People on here have short memories, sadly this is true in many forms of history.

rossi was as unbeatable in the wet as the dry a few years back.

He has just simply b een given a bike to ride that he can't sort out for some reason and therefore he has no feeling from the front, a vital part of his riding style. In the wet that is accentuated even more.

[bestfit]

Originally Posted by chunder

He has just simply b een given a bike to ride that he can't sort out for some reason and therefore he has no feeling from the front, a vital part of his riding style. In the wet that is accentuated even more.

Actually it is lessened. Rossi has often said he hopes for rain this year because the bike is much more competetive in the wet because he doesn't have to push into the realm where front end feel is lost.

[chunder]

Maybe so, but he has lost the essence of sill in the wet and I would imagine a loss of feeling in the front would only come about in the wet more, maybe he means he can ride without the electronics a bit more as most riders do in the wet anyway, he can make the difference.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by bestfit

Actually it is lessened. Rossi has often said he hopes for rain this year because the bike is much more competetive in the wet because he doesn't have to push into the realm where front end feel is lost.

Yeah, Hayden has also liked the bike in the wet. I think the only reason Rossi dumped it in Jerez was over-eagerness. Perhaps he realized even then that the possibility of a good result this year would be few and far between. He got excited and crashed. Happens.

[Dani Filth]

Originally Posted by chunder

Or, wait for it, Anthony West! lol.

that was low chundy .. even for you