USCC (leave your axe outside)

[jeast]

[QUOTE=HORNDAWG;3256032]That is exactly what you said! Maybe one should understand the context of the post being responded to.
This all sprouted from a conversation in which the lap times at Le Mans were the topic, this being part of it; "Why did they have to slow them down in the first place... I'm sure with 2010 regs they could've gone down to 3.12 by now?!" by limiting the low end allowed in lap time they control the 'SPEED' of the cars, period![quote]

No it all came out of a disscussion about high tech vs low tech racing at witch lap times were used to compare times at Daytona between two cars 20 years apart, then it was brought up that they have a set lap time just like Le Mans. I was responding to the poster saying because some people believe that racing involve more than Rubbin' and Confederate flags that they are not race fans and only tech fans.

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

22 P2s starting for Le Mans.

There were only a handful of LMP2's at Sebring this year.

If racing LMP2's in the states is so viable, why did the WEC drop the 12 Hour from its schedule this year?

Maybe the DP owners have a point. Why spend more money on DP's (currently 13 full-season entries in Grand-Am) if only a few LMP2's plan to compete next year in the USCR? Remember, without ESM you wouldn't have an LMP2 class in the ALMS this year.

Maybe the USCR should just toss the five existing classes (DP, LMP2, GTE, DGT and GX) together next year at Daytona and see what happens.

--- Andy Flinn

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

There were only a handful of LMP2's at Sebring this year.

If racing LMP2's in the states is so viable, why did the WEC drop the 12 Hour from its schedule this year?

Maybe the DP owners have a point. Why spend more money on DP's (currently 13 full-season entries in Grand-Am) if only a few LMP2's plan to compete next year in the USCR? Remember, without ESM you wouldn't have an LMP2 class in the ALMS this year.

Maybe the USCR should just toss the five existing classes (DP, LMP2, GTE, DGT and GX) together next year at Daytona and see what happens.

--- Andy Flinn

Hi Andy, welcome to TenTenths!

The WEC dropped Sebring from their schedule because they did not want to run it in cooperation with the ALMS. They wanted the 12 Hours for themselves but the ALMS rejected that idea.

The fact is, P2s WILL compete next year in USCR...it doesn't matter how many there are. The DPs have to be sped up and a little money will be required. Keeping the DPs at their current speed is not an option because the GTE (GTLM) class will be right on their tail.

Why turn the 24 into an "experimental" race? Why not just balance the cars now(!) and print a final rule book. It will surely help teams with their future plans!

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

Maybe the USCR should just toss the five existing classes (DP, LMP2, GTE, DGT and GX) together next year at Daytona and see what happens.

--- Andy Flinn

The P2s kick the crap out of the DPs and NASCAR craps itself. Also, you forgot the LMPC cars which are faster than DPs at most circuits.

[aneesh99]

Originally Posted by BullMan

The P2s kick the crap out of the DPs and NASCAR craps itself. Also, you forgot the LMPC cars which are faster than DPs at most circuits.

Precisely. I posted this before in another thread, imagine the havoc if DPs aren't sped up, they'll all go barrelling into one corner at the same time! 3 into 1 just doesn't work, then you get drivers on both side complaining about traffic

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

There were only a handful of LMP2's at Sebring this year.

If racing LMP2's in the states is so viable, why did the WEC drop the 12 Hour from its schedule this year?

This doesn't make any sense. As explained by another poster, WEC wanted Sebring to themselves. Plus the teams don't want to travel outside Europe before Le Mans anymore.

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

Maybe the USCR should just toss the five existing classes (DP, LMP2, GTE, DGT and GX) together next year at Daytona and see what happens.

I'm fine with that. As explained by another poster, the GTE's will be knocking the bumpers off of the DPs in the corners and the LMP2s and LMPCs will be long gone from the DPs.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by Salamus

The WEC dropped Sebring from their schedule because they did not want to run it in cooperation with the ALMS. They wanted the 12 Hours for themselves but the ALMS rejected that idea.

Lets go with that idea! Soooooooooo much better than what is coming.

[aneesh99]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I'm fine with that. As explained by another poster, the GTE's will be knocking the bumpers off of the DPs in the corners and the LMP2s and LMPCs will be long gone from the DPs.

'Wrecking is racing', maybe NASCAR really will have their way with USCR

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by aneesh99

'Wrecking is racing', maybe NASCAR really will have their way with USCR

The guy's first post on here. Doesn't even bother to say hi or introduce himself. Nope,he takes the factual statement of 22 LMP2s starting at Le Mans and starts trying to twist it to WEC and Sebring in some way.

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

There were only a handful of LMP2's at Sebring this year.

If racing LMP2's in the states is so viable, why did the WEC drop the 12 Hour from its schedule this year?

Maybe the DP owners have a point. Why spend more money on DP's (currently 13 full-season entries in Grand-Am) if only a few LMP2's plan to compete next year in the USCR? Remember, without ESM you wouldn't have an LMP2 class in the ALMS this year.

Maybe the USCR should just toss the five existing classes (DP, LMP2, GTE, DGT and GX) together next year at Daytona and see what happens.

--- Andy Flinn

And yet another nubie shows what an a$$ he is. WTF, are these trackforum members showing up here?

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

Maybe the DP owners have a point. Why spend more money on DP's (currently 13 full-season entries in Grand-Am) if only a few LMP2's plan to compete next year in the USCR?
--- Andy Flinn

Speeding up the DPs is the only logical option, as otherwise the other four classes have to be slowed down.
To me, the most logical route would be to allow DPs to compete either in the P class or the PC class. Thus, the teams that can't afford to upgrade to P2 speed can upgrade slightly to run with PC.

[tjh8402]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Lets go with that idea! Soooooooooo much better than what is coming.

Agree. As a native central floridian, I've long considered the 12 Hours as my home race and its been the highlight of my year. It was so depressing going this year knowing the fall from glory the event was to suffer, the lost opportunity for fans to experience top caliber cars up close, and that I won't be back again anytime soon. I won't be looking forward to March as much anymore

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by HJJ

And yet another nubie shows what an a$$ he is. WTF, are these trackforum members showing up here?

"Andy Flinn" is far from a newbie, and has been on this forum and a number of others under other alias for well over a decade.

[Tim240z]

Originally Posted by tjh8402

Agree. As a native central floridian, I've long considered the 12 Hours as my home race and its been the highlight of my year. It was so depressing going this year knowing the fall from glory the event was to suffer, the lost opportunity for fans to experience top caliber cars up close, and that I won't be back again anytime soon. I won't be looking forward to March as much anymore

Same here... I use to run the SVRA race in my Datsun, but even if they (SVRA) go back, I wont be able to justify the cost for the weekend.

It just wont be as cool.

[Lanky Turtle]

That's fine. I'll go and tell you how it was.

And as Fogelhund mentioned, I've seen Andy Flinn posting on racing message boards for many many years. No reason to start hurling insults because you feel you have a superior post count.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by Lanky Turtle

And as Fogelhund mentioned, I've seen Andy Flinn posting on racing message boards for many many years. No reason to start hurling insults because you feel you have a superior post count.

Or maybe it was because he was wrong.

What does the LMP2 car count have to do with WEC not running Sebring?

[Speed-King]

[QUOTE=jeast;3257092][QUOTE=HORNDAWG;3256032]That is exactly what you said! Maybe one should understand the context of the post being responded to.
This all sprouted from a conversation in which the lap times at Le Mans were the topic, this being part of it; "Why did they have to slow them down in the first place... I'm sure with 2010 regs they could've gone down to 3.12 by now?!" by limiting the low end allowed in lap time they control the 'SPEED' of the cars, period!

No it all came out of a disscussion about high tech vs low tech racing at witch lap times were used to compare times at Daytona between two cars 20 years apart, then it was brought up that they have a set lap time just like Le Mans. I was responding to the poster saying because some people believe that racing involve more than Rubbin' and Confederate flags that they are not race fans and only tech fans.

I assume that's directed at me? If so that's a gross misrepresentation of my argument. Just because I prefer a good scrap on track over a tech exhibit doesn't mean I am a fan of NASCAR or confederate flags - the latter being an allegation I find pretty offensive.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Just because I prefer a good scrap on track over a tech exhibit doesn't mean I am a fan of NASCAR or confederate flags - the latter being an allegation I find pretty offensive.

I didn't know that Peugeot vs. Audi 2007-2011 was only a tech exhibit with no good battles on the track.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I didn't know that Peugeot vs. Audi 2007-2011 was only a tech exhibit with no good battles on the track.

For the most part (and apart from LM, Sebring and Petit), Peugeot victories were a foregone conclusion once they had their car dialed in. And way too often, the two factories actually elected not to face off against eachother on a regular basis, but rather only ran selected races.

If there were at least two equally well-funded factory teams commited to running USRC for 3 years and supplying at least 2 customer cars each, I'd say by all means, bring it on - but since that is not the case, P1 is not a viable option right now and I'd rather have 20 DPs/P2s mixing it up then the fiasco ALMS P1 has been over the last couple of years.

[gregtummer]

Why not just have privateers run at a lower weight?

You could get the factory efforts with their exotic cars
And then the privateers can run their more affordable cars while still having a chance to win.

Run factory LMP1s at 900kgs
Run privateer LMP1s at 800kgs

You get the full factory LMP1s with their exotic cars.
They don't have to give away their technology in customer cars if they don't want to.
Privateers still have a chance without getting blown out of the water.
Then you can have the story-lines of can Audi and Toyota make up their 100kg deficit through engineering and technology. It could be like 2007-2008 ALMS all over again.

I don't consider this "racing socialism" either as you have privateers going up against factories with potential unlimited budgets.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Why not just have privateers run at a lower weight?

What privateers though? Even at current levels almost nobody can afford to run a proper P1 effort in North America, and as DSC recently suggested, we can expect 2014 P1 budgets to be quite a bit higher than they are right now.

It could be like 2007-2008 ALMS all over again.

But in 2007-2008 only the factory teams in P2 were able to compete with Audi on one level. The only credible threat for a factory team is another factory team (back in 2005 Audi managed to trounce the - at the time - world's best privateer outfit Pescarolo even with the severly handicapped R8 ). And not just any factory team at that, but one that is properly funded. Toyota caught Audi napping last year and that brought us some good racing, but unless Toyota Japan really decides to step up their game, we are probably not very likely to see this again, if the early part of this season is anything to go by.

By all means, USRC should keep an open door for the P1 manufacturers if they commit to run at least half a dozen of cars over several years, but that doesn't mean that there is much value in keeping P1 in its current state.

[gregtummer]

The P2s did have much smaller engines though.

[trickyd]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Why not just have privateers run at a lower weight?

You could get the factory efforts with their exotic cars
And then the privateers can run their more affordable cars while still having a chance to win.

Run factory LMP1s at 900kgs
Run privateer LMP1s at 800kgs

You get the full factory LMP1s with their exotic cars.
They don't have to give away their technology in customer cars if they don't want to.
Privateers still have a chance without getting blown out of the water.
Then you can have the story-lines of can Audi and Toyota make up their 100kg deficit through engineering and technology. It could be like 2007-2008 ALMS all over again.

I don't consider this "racing socialism" either as you have privateers going up against factories with potential unlimited budgets.

Why, as a manufacturer, would you go into a series with those rules. They could spend all their money, make a top car, and then get beat by a couple of lads maintaining a two year old chasis in their shed. Its like saying "yeah, come along, but we've set the rules so that it makes it easy for everyone to beat you". They'd just say no, surely. Why would you spend millions on getting embarrassed and creating bad PR?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Lanky Turtle

That's fine. I'll go and tell you how it was.

And as Fogelhund mentioned, I've seen Andy Flinn posting on racing message boards for many many years. No reason to start hurling insults because you feel you have a superior post count.

Indeed, no point hurling insults at all. As inaccurate as his posting is, you can point it out without insulting him. Having said that, he is one of many long-term Grand Am fans who have taken liberties with reality in an instigating manner over the years. No need to stoop to that level.

[Dodge_Swinger]

If DPs were "firebreathing" cars and looked a LOT better, there wouldn't be a problem. If a DP turned the same lap times as a P1 car and didn't still look like a caricature of a sports car, I wouldn't care if they're tube-framed or not. Remove engine restrictions regarding rev limits and/or intake size to give a significant power increase. SLIGHTLY improve aero, do something, ANYTHING about the looks, and the cars would be exciting in my book. Low tech or not, if they're turning similar lap times to P1, I for one would have little to complain about. I think the cost of P1 is due to the P1 regulations. I think DP performance and appearance could be vastly improved and still maintain the DP "doctrine". Sure, it would cost more money, but it wouldn't be anywhere near P1 money.

I watched Detroit. DPs look like they corner like a NASCAR Cup car with slightly better aero.They lean and "rock" on their suspension just like a Cup car. They don't appear "nervous" and "darty" like an LMP car. Probably can't do much about cornering without spending a ton of money, but horsepower could be raised significantly be opening up rev limits and intake size. I don't think it would require a bunch of exotic materials, just open the restrictions on the motors you have. Design a better rear wing and do something with the front aero regs. Cornering might not improve much, but if straight line speed was significantly increased, then lap times would fall.

Highly doubtful that even this will happen. I'm thinking that LMP2 as envisioned by NASCAR is going to aesthetically look like crap. I see increased ride height, neutered aero that also looks DP ugly, along with ballast.

I nearly turned off the Detroit broadcast when the announcer said "it's the first lap, and they're already rubbin'". You can talk all you want about how USCR isn't NASCAR turning right and left, but when the announcers want to talk about "rubbin' is racin', boogity, boogity", it really IS just talk. If I wanted to watch NASCAR, I'd watch NASCAR.