USCC 2014 Entry List & Schedule ONLY

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I am not so much arguing for privateers in GTLM - after all they are still free to do that should they be able to come up with a car and a budget - but rather for factory-backed teams and Pro/Pro lineups in GTD to give smaller manufacturers or those that don't have a car suitable for GTLM right now a place to play.

Where would someone like Spyker or Marcos go these days if they wanted to do a factory program in the US? They'd be in way over their head in GTLM; but with the Pro/Am rule in GTD, doing a factory program there would really not make much sense either. Hence, they'd probably shuffle off to PWC or bin the whole thing.

And it's not just the boutique manufacturers... let's say Subaru wanted to do something with the BRZ, oder Hyundai with the Genesis Coupe or Mazda with the next RX-series car.

A pro-am driver set-up won the Grand-Am GT championship for Mazda just as it later did for Ferrari (both #69 FXDD cars).

However, I do see your point, which can be applied to most things in life: There's an exception to every rule.

Still, if Mazda, Hyundai or even a Chevy Camaro or Ford Mustang find it difficult to compete in GTD, it won't be because of the class pro-am driver requirement. Instead, it will be due to the fundamental philosophy, rules, and BOP of GTD.

I hope you can see what I'm driving at.

Andy Flinn

[PointDSM]

Some car manufactures simply do not belong in GTLM or GTD until they "manufacture" an applicable car. Subaru and Hyundai fall into this category, as their "best" cars are best suited for CTSS or PWC. The Camaro does not belong in the USCC, period. Chevrolet could (and should) make a GTD version of the Corvette.

Ford doesn't make a car that belongs in the USCC either (see Camaro), and is SOL until they actually make a sportscar.

We must remember that just because you build cars, doesn't mean you can enter any series you want and BOP your car in. Some makes are close enough that it works, but there is a limit...

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by PointDSM

Some car manufactures simply do not belong in GTLM or GTD until they "manufacture" an applicable car. Subaru and Hyundai fall into this category, as their "best" cars are best suited for CTSS or PWC. The Camaro does not belong in the USCC, period. Chevrolet could (and should) make a GTD version of the Corvette.

Ford doesn't make a car that belongs in the USCC either (see Camaro), and is SOL until they actually make a sportscar.

We must remember that just because you build cars, doesn't mean you can enter any series you want and BOP your car in. Some makes are close enough that it works, but there is a limit...

I agree with all of this. However, what are your thoughts about the Z4 GTE with the V8?

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by PointDSM

The Camaro does not belong in the USCC, period. Chevrolet could (and should) make a GTD version of the Corvette.

Callaway already announced they would be a GTD version of the Corvette with Chevrolet's blessing. Whether it makes the light of day is another story.

[Koenigsegg]

Originally Posted by HJJ

Callaway already announced they would be a GT3 version of the Corvette with Chevrolet's blessing. Whether it makes the light of day is another story.

Corrected it for you. They announced a GT3 version, not a GTD version.

[PointDSM]

I actually think the Z4-GTLM should not be racing in it's current fashion. The M3 with its engine relocation fell in my "allowable concession" category, but throwing the V8 in the Z4 without BMW selling a street version is not acceptable. I actually think the Z4 should be GTD with a factory-built BMW high-output engine with the same blueprint of the motor on the street. BMW should then make their new M4 their GTLM car, plain and simple.

I also think the displacement limit in GTLM is bogus and irrelevant. Why not allow a car to run it's normal engine (like Viper, unlike Corvette) and just BOP it down? That makes more sense than to put arbitrary limits in place. I also think the Audi R8 should be a GTLM car.

This is what I believe the classes should be:
GTLM:
Porsche (991)
Ferrari (458)
Audi (R8)
BMW (M4)
SRT (Viper)
Chevrolet (Corvette)
Mercedes (SLS, until it was discontinued)
McLaren (MPC12)
Bentley (Continental)
Nissan (GTR)
Others (Spyker, Lotus, Etc)
Toyota (Lexus LFA)
Lamborghini (whatever car they have this week)

GTD:
Chevrolet (Camaro)
Ford (Mustang)
BMW (Z4)
Porsche (911 America)

But due to factory involvement, we would need to separate GTLM into factory/privateer classes, which doesn't make sense. I actually liked the old-school method of GT racing which had essentially trans-am cars in the lower level (AGT).

[Koenigsegg]

BMW M4 won't fit into GTLM. It doesn't have a V8, it will have inline 6-cylinder with a twinturbo.

Perhaps they should race the i8 when the ACO allow hybrids in GTE.

[AFC-911]

Originally Posted by PointDSM

This is what I believe the classes should be:
GTLM:
Porsche (991)
Ferrari (458)
Audi (R8)
BMW (M4)
SRT (Viper)
Chevrolet (Corvette)
Mercedes (SLS, until it was discontinued)
McLaren (MPC12)
Bentley (Continental)
Nissan (GTR)
Others (Spyker, Lotus, Etc)
Toyota (Lexus LFA)
Lamborghini (whatever car they have this week)

Until Nissan actually builds a V8 RWD GTR, I don't think they belong...

[Matt]

Originally Posted by AFC-911

Until Nissan actually builds a V8 RWD GTR, I don't think they belong...

You mean like the V6TT one they have as a GT3 car?

[chernaudi]

The issue with Dinan is that his BMW engines may be BMW based and have BMW branding on them, but IMSA/NASCAR seem to believe that because the engines didn't have the full blessing of BMW Motorsport (like the engines in the Z4 GTLM does), in their minds, that doesn't make them a "manufacturer" engine under their rules. That also goes for the 3.6 liter BMW based Judd LMP2 V8, which in the WEC is also branded as a Praga.

It's probably best to ask IMSA on what their criteria is for a "manufacture" vs a "tuner" engine. One would think that the BMW origins and the fact that they're based on BMW production engines (5.0 V8 out of the old M5 and 4.5 V8 is based on the 4.0/4.4 engines used in the last generation M3 and is used now in BMW's turbo V8s) would be enough, but IMSA seems to think that the engines need major manufacture endorsement as opposed to just branding and origin.

[AFC-911]

Originally Posted by Matt

You mean like the V6TT one they have as a GT3 car?

They're actually racing that engine? The only GT-Rs I knew were the V8 RWD cars in GT1...

I don't like GT-Rs enough to pay attention to them. But I would enjoy seeing Corvette, Ferrari, SRT and Porsche beat the crap out of Nissan.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by AFC-911

They're actually racing that engine? The only GT-Rs I knew were the V8 RWD cars in GT1...

I don't like GT-Rs enough to pay attention to them. But I would enjoy seeing Corvette, Ferrari, SRT and Porsche beat the crap out of Nissan.

theyve been running it for the past two or three years
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NFmiSgRWYQ

[Lagunaseca_4life]

The gt-r is an amazing machine and has carried much more technology than corvettes and vipers the last few years on the street,even the street gtr is a better car than vettes and vipers.i would much more happily watch gt-r's beat up on the vettes and vipers on the track just like they do on the street.

[AFC-911]

Thanks Matt, I vaguely remember those running slower than Porsche, Audi and Merc at the Nurburgring 24. lol

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

The gt-r is an amazing machine and has carried much more technology than corvettes and vipers the last few years on the street,even the street gtr is a better car than vettes and vipers.i would much more happily watch gt-r's beat up on the vettes and vipers on the track just like they do on the street.

I'm a Porsche guy, but I respect the Vette and Vipers more than I do the GT-Rs...

Until they start competing at Le Mans, I won't view them in the same light.

Corvette and Viper did it the right way by going racing against the big boys.

[HORNDAWG]

Starworks PC

http://starworksmotorsport.com/spani...ins-starworks/







L.P.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

No.

They were BMW engines with official BMW approval. CGR also received financial and other support (Joey Hand) from BMW.

Andy Flinn

No they weren't. Dinan had to build an engine for Ganassi and he used a BMW block. Then it was branded as BMW for advertising purposes.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by AFC-911

Thanks Matt, I vaguely remember those running slower than Porsche, Audi and Merc at the Nurburgring 24. lol



I'm a Porsche guy, but I respect the Vette and Vipers more than I do the GT-Rs...

Until they start competing at Le Mans, I won't view them in the same light.

Corvette and Viper did it the right way by going racing against the big boys.

Very true....

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by BullMan

No they weren't. Dinan had to build an engine for Ganassi and he used a BMW block. Then it was branded as BMW for advertising purposes.

You are incorrect. It was a BMW sanctioned and promoted project, period. The engines can still be run but might be badged/carry the Dinan name if any are to be run. http://sportscar365.com/imsa/tusc/bm...otype-support/







L.P.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by BullMan

No they weren't. Dinan had to build an engine for Ganassi and he used a BMW block. Then it was branded as BMW for advertising purposes.

Dinan was building DP engines long before Ganassi switched from Lexus and tuning BMWs has always been their main business...

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

Subaru is racing the BRZ in GT300. The Australian Austech Motorsport wanted to make a GTE, GT3 and a Grand-Am GT version of the Genesis Coupe, but Hyundai didn't let them. Rumours are that Hyundai is going to race the Genesis in GT300 also.

The Japanese programs have no impact whatsoever on potential US-programs, I am not sure why you'd bring that up here.

There is not really a market for the BRZ, Genesis and RX in US. Engine size is too small. Perhaps they could race in PWC, but not sure how attractive that is for manufacturers.

Huh? I am pretty sure the US are the biggest market for each of those models. Unless you refer to the racing market, but the lack of that market is exactly the point I am trying to make here...

Marcos is bankrupt and Spyker is on the verge of bankruptcy for several years. Spyker did announce several years ago that they were going to produce a GTE version of the C8 Aileron. They could run in WEC or TUSC and make the car a bit competitive with BoP, but they won't win.

I am pretty sure, I said "for example"... there are plenty of other small sportscar manufacturers that right now don't really have a place to play in either GTE ( due to the big factories' development budgets) or GTD (big manufacturers vetoing anything that might threaten their customer car sales). Which really is quite shame, as the little cars that could have always been the favorites of many fans.

Still, if Mazda, Hyundai or even a Chevy Camaro or Ford Mustang find it difficult to compete in GTD, it won't be because of the class pro-am driver requirement. Instead, it will be due to the fundamental philosophy, rules, and BOP of GTD.

You can't do a factory program with pro/am pilots... "We've employed the best engineers, used the best materials and put our smartest minds to creating the best racing car we could. And then we put a dentist in the drivers seat, because.... errrrm...." Yeah, that'd totally make sense.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Dinan was building DP engines long before Ganassi switched from Lexus and tuning BMWs has always been their main business...

True, but the recent BMW engine program, which included CGR was a BMW sanctioned/sponsored program and carried many incentives and benefits that Dinan will not.






L.P.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

True, but the recent BMW engine program, which included CGR was a BMW sanctioned/sponsored program and carried many incentives and benefits that Dinan will not.






L.P.

No, it was just branded a BMW because of the block Dinan chose. After the fact BMW has gotten in on the advertising side of things.

[Speed-King]

Some car manufactures simply do not belong in GTLM or GTD until they "manufacture" an applicable car. Subaru and Hyundai fall into this category, as their "best" cars are best suited for CTSS or PWC. The Camaro does not belong in the USCC, period. Chevrolet could (and should) make a GTD version of the Corvette.

Ford doesn't make a car that belongs in the USCC either (see Camaro), and is SOL until they actually make a sportscar.

We must remember that just because you build cars, doesn't mean you can enter any series you want and BOP your car in. Some makes are close enough that it works, but there is a limit...

That concept has gone right out of the window the moment they made the M3 (let alone the Z4) competitive against the 458... The Subaru, Hyundai, Camaro and Mustang are exactly the cars BMW should race against with the Z4. By not having a class for this kind of cars, you force them into exactly the kind of catch all classes that have supercars running against sedans and entry level roadsters.

[chernaudi]

As mentioned, the Dinan engines are BMW derived, and were produced obviously with some support from BMW North America, but I think that IMSA and NASCAR are making a distinction between being supported by BMW NA alone, vs BMW NA and BMW Motorsport. I think that the program not really being supported by BMW Motorsport itself is the deciding factor.

The BMW Z4 GTLM program is a BMW M program, while the Dinan engines were supported only by BMW NA.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by BullMan

No, it was just branded a BMW because of the block Dinan chose. After the fact BMW has gotten in on the advertising side of things.

L.P.