Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[DanShenise]

If I had $600k to throw around, I'd go ALMS-LMPC, probably similar year round ROI and at least I would be part of a racing series that looks like a racing series and not a bunch of wanna be astronauts. Now that I've seen that, I just can't get, "Meet George Jetson," out of my mind.

[nickyf1]

I wonder if Obama will make NASA use the Delta Wing as the new Spacecraft after cancelling Project Constellation

[JagtechOhio]

You're not kidding, it's unbelievable, isn't it? Did you see the sim video?

As for a design exercise, nice job Mr. Bowlby. Now go take LeRoy for a walk, and don't forget the spiffy carbon fiber pooper scooper they made you in the fab shop.

As for LMPC, you and I might wind up pretty happy how this turns out. I've convinced myself that this chance for a new formula is not going to be fully open wheel.

The red Dallara with the front wheel fairings and rear extensions is what I am alluding to. Barnhart and Mactaggart are for safety as job #1 (God bless 'em). The '04 lift studies, and the rising concern over airborn cars, have made it clear to them that this business of rubbing wheels at 225 cannot be considered as acceptable risk any longer.

Many people will complain about it. But it won't sound like today did.

[Purist]

I'm guessing that part of the issue with NOT running composite chasses is that the major open-wheel series simply don't want to even have a chance of being in the dark as to how much fatigue-life is left in a given chassis. Carbon is expensive, and shatters, but then, that shattering tells you without ambiguity when you've reached the limits of the material. A carbon/kevlar material will give you that clear indication, but also won't be as bad in terms of shedding shrapnel. Also, isn't a tubeframe heavier than a composite monocoque? The trouble there is, if you're traveling at the same sorts of speeds, but with more mass, that's more energy you have to deal with in any sort of incident.

Bowlby does make some sense in the article it must be said. Wings ARE very fragile, expensive structures that add a lot of drag and produce an abundance of wake turbulence, which interferes with overtaking. And although I was perhaps a bit surprised at just how high the number was (54% of total drag at Indy), the exposed wheels on the current cars DO make plenty of drag. Also, a simpler car oveerall would certainly NOT be a bad thing.

I really like the smooth, low nose on the Delta Wing. If it were me, I would remove the central tail fin, give the car a traditional front-end wheel arrangement, expose the rear wheels a bit more (in lateral terms, as well as NOT have any bodywork come over the wheels), and fit something akin to the front and rear wings from the third Dallara concept to the machine.

Question, what happens if ICS calls Delta Wing's bluff?

[Jay]

Hehe...go Delta Wing! Seriously... I'm interested - if this is their actual design, I would like to see it on track and see how it goes, even if it is comedic.

Why can't we just go back to the good old days of the split?

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Purist

I'm guessing that part of the issue with NOT running composite chasses is that the major open-wheel series simply don't want to even have a chance of being in the dark as to how much fatigue-life is left in a given chassis. Carbon is expensive, and shatters, but then, that shattering tells you without ambiguity when you've reached the limits of the material. A carbon/kevlar material will give you that clear indication, but also won't be as bad in terms of shedding shrapnel.

Tubeframe is old technology. Old in a good way, as in "everyone knows how it works, knows its limits, and knows how to fix it". You know just as well when a frame cracks as you do when carbon splinters. Go to a grassroots race sometime and look at a car after it wrecks. You can tell when it's broken and it can be replaced easily enough. And for shrapnel, if you watch any wreck you would see carbonfibre is much worse than tubeframe in that respect.

[Félix]

I also want to know how the thing turns.

Side protection is severely lacking. Do we want another Zanardi incident? At least expand the side pods air inlets forward so they're crushable structures.

Still many good ideas. I like fuel flow limitation and free engine regs. I like light weight and drag reduction. Just give it a proper front suspension (with bumper/wing and tethers if you want) to get decent cornering abilities. Oh and they seem to want to open up to chassis manufacturer competition. I'd like that.

Finally, the Mid-Ohio youtube video shows a lap of about 1:10. It's Mid-Ohio 1995 simulated in RFactor, so it's at least somewhat realistic (weight, aero and power accurately simulated but narrow track omitted?) It's an LMP lap time, more or less. And I can say I'd like to see a pack of those zooming around if they're more lively and raceable on the track.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Tim,

I know, Swift made sure to pay lip service to the Indy production involvement. Then I went to Mark One Composite's web site. I got another pint of beer to bet you they never built a CF tub in their lives.

Why would Swift move? They have a complete design, testing and manufacturing facility. That will work great, it just doesn't grease any wheels in Indy.

Mayor Ballard is up for re-election in 2011. The IMS revenues are decreasing, the IICS continues to operate at least $20M in the red.

Lola makes great race cars. I'll love watching them when the vintage races come around.

Dallara can also build and sell the Topolino they just introduced here, and teams can send their young drivers across the street to pick out their cheap new ladder series chassis.

Or they can also add a road going version of the X-Bow they build now. More jobs. More plant expansion. Mr. Dalara and designer Andre Toso have already laid out the plan. Dallara said the propsect was first discussed in 2002.

If the Series splits and dissolves, none of it will come to pass. And NO ONE wants to stop and think about how bad 2010 was already shaping up to be.

Now you have an idea of what I have been doing for six months. And why I have been asking questions, formulating answers and shooting my mouth off, hoping to get some response from insiders. I haven't been able to get through. Yet.

I totally understand, and I agree with you 100%...We have corresponded..I got hosed in another area of motorsports by greedy people who basically took our idea to create a spec series to line its pockets...It wasn't even on their radar until they got a proposal from us to do what we wanted to do and decided to upgrade some non-selling inventory to go for it...

I also know how the game is played...especially here, in Indy...Why are so many NHRA teams and their support industries located in Brownsburg, Indiana? Govt. is their best buddy...they know that the sport will butter their bread...

Govt. bent over backwards to bring them in....The Motorsports industry is huge in Indy in all levels of racing, from dirt cars to engine builders to fire suits and helmets to HANS devices to spares, to CF, to whatever else you can name in racing....Simpson, as an example, has been here for decades...wrongly sued, BTW, because Dale Sr. didn't wear his belts properly

The former Reynard NA wind tunnel (can't think of its name now, but IIRC, it is the ARC?) added 30,000 ft. of space recently with no property tax increases from the local govt....motorsports is money and jobs here...construction jobs to build the footage, and that is just the tip of the iceberg..we know it in Indy and they bend over backwards to accommodate...

They probably WILL do it all in-house when it comes to Dallara...with fat cash coming in from the State and the City to locate here....but if they want to job out work, they can, and there are plenty of companies that would bid on it!!! Trust me!!!

If they want to job some stuff out, to someone like Aerodyne or even Allied Composites, just to speed up the process, they can...Aerodyne did the Panoz revisions when the IRl went to the 3.5L Honda engines to give them better cooling, etc...

There are many options open to them...but I think they will grab the cash cow...Just like Reynard did in the 1990s, when they built their North American operations in Indy...with huge tax incentives to do so...

FWIW

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Ryan. thanks for that. It's an interesting insight that I hadn't gotten to yet, about using such an extreme re-design as an excuse to break away.

The point I would make to you is that when you look at all the owners you mentioned, the majority don't even have enough funding to run a single car for the full 2010 season.

Ganassi, Andretti and Penske are the power brokers: the rest are just the flock. Chip has already, in my opinion, made his intentions clear. Barnes has supported him publicly.

Transporters load for Barber testing in 11 days. There is no clear indication that Wiggins, Bachelart, Coyne, Haas, Beck or Rahal will be making the trip. No idea where Kalkoven stands, but no firm committments are in place.

I agree with this as well...can't make a series on them, can you?

[Tim Northcutt]

[QUOTE=Flyin Ryan;2630997}
I co-designed a sportscar for a friend. The carbonfibre roller is $225k. The tubeframe roller is $97k. 57% reduction in cost, and that's not even accounting for there being much fewer people out in the real world that are knowledge capable of working on carbonfibre versus a tubeframe (unless you work on military aircraft). Common available racing engines have to be used, not some specialized turbocharged 4-cylinder engine that no automaker outside of one maybe two is willing to manufacture.[/QUOTE]

Is that co-designer the Andy (not jagtechOhio) that we both know, Flyin' Ryan?

Just curios...Sounds exactly like him, and I've known him for at least 3-4 years...

PM me...let's don't play this out in public...but he ultimately built a gorgeous prototype...

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Well. if it's $600K with what ever power plant they selected already installed, maybe not so bad.

Of course the IICS hasn't set the engine spec yet, either.

If it's a $600K price tag for a roller, then Ryan's idea looks even more valid. And only three teams in the paddock will be able to buy them.

I thought that the news release said that with the whole turnkey package that it would be $600,000...you have to do the wiring and spooling, etc., plus the engine to get to a "what to drive it" car costs, compared to a Dallara they have now.

I could be wrong, but that is the way I read it...

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Tubeframe is old technology. Old in a good way, as in "everyone knows how it works, knows its limits, and knows how to fix it". You know just as well when a frame cracks as you do when carbon splinters. Go to a grassroots race sometime and look at a car after it wrecks. You can tell when it's broken and it can be replaced easily enough. And for shrapnel, if you watch any wreck you would see carbonfibre is much worse than tubeframe in that respect.

You did work with Andy, who has a shop in the "sponge place on the Gulf," didn't you?

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Purist

I really like the smooth, low nose on the Delta Wing. If it were me, I would remove the central tail fin, give the car a traditional front-end wheel arrangement, expose the rear wheels a bit more (in lateral terms, as well as NOT have any bodywork come over the wheels), and fit something akin to the front and rear wings from the third Dallara concept to the machine.

If you add wings, make the front track wider and expose more of the tires, their concept of a car competitive with current cars using only 300 HP goes out the window.

It's consistent with the descriptions we've heard over the last few months, but it would definitely take some getting used to.

[JagtechOhio]

I am bugging out right now. John Barnes issued a speech that sounds like a union leader fomenting a walkout. And Tony George is listed among the supporters of the Delta Wing Group??????

I need meds. Goodnight.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

I totally understand, and I agree with you 100%...We have corresponded..I got hosed in another area of motorsports by greedy people who basically took our idea to create a spec series to line its pockets...It wasn't even on their radar until they got a proposal from us to do what we wanted to do and decided to upgrade some non-selling inventory to go for it...

IMSA Lites?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

IMSA Lites?

Yep...You're a good guesser, Flyin Ryan

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

They probably WILL do it all in-house when it comes to Dallara...with fat cash coming in from the State and the City to locate here....but if they want to job out work, they can, and there are plenty of companies that would bid on it!!! Trust me!!!

If they want to job some stuff out, to someone like Aerodyne or even Allied Composites, just to speed up the process, they can...Aerodyne did the Panoz revisions when the IRl went to the 3.5L Honda engines to give them better cooling, etc...

Pure conjecture here, no inside knowledge. Maybe this is why Carl Haas' name is not on the owners' list for Delta Wing? Haas received the parts business from Panoz to settle some of Panoz' debt (per Murphy the Bear), and maybe Haas thinks in addition to the LMPC cars that his company has a partial stake in building, he could take this parts business and also get some of the subassembly work for a new Indianapolis-assembled Dallara Indycar?

It would make sense, he's by far the most conspicuous absence on the Delta Wing owner list. Foyt's not on just because that's how Foyt works and he'd never sign up to such a thing anyway. Coyne and Beck maybe realize they're screwed either way as backmarkers or don't have enough money to even have it worth worrying about, I don't know.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

I am bugging out right now. John Barnes issued a speech that sounds like a union leader fomenting a walkout. And Tony George is listed among the supporters of the Delta Wing Group??????

I need meds. Goodnight.

Tantrum II.

At this point, Tony wants nothing more than for the IRL to fail.

Of course he's going to have a tough pitch to get the other owners let him lead if they tell IMS it's Delta or they're leaving to start their own thing.

Wouldn't it be funny if the IRL's biggest supporters decide to follow Tony and they end up against the IRL together with the folks who were against the IRL from day one?

[JagtechOhio]

My freaking head is going to explode.

Hass' move diversified his business, so he's cool even if the race team folds. Either he has a back door deal like Ryan says, or he's set regardless and doesn't give a crap.

Golly gee, Penske and Cindric sure have had a lot to say.

I honestly think Tony George is powerless and broke. It's just his symbolic way of flipping off his family.

All the marginal players will jump to the back of the longest line, they are irrelevant. Three teams rule the day.

Mountainstar just wrote that the FIA can refuse to sanction the Sao Paulo race, and they'd have to shut it down.

My freaking head is going to explode.

[racer69]

Its different, takes some getting used to, but all in all i don't see too much that is 'that' wrong with it.

The current 'normal' looking Indycars are too expensive, not popular enough etc... maybe this can do as intended, revitalise and make people look.

So what if the wheels are only partially open, it is still a single seater.

[JagtechOhio]

Hey mate,

Hope the summer weather is good.

I agree with most of what you say..and the final design isn't likely to have open wheels in the traditional sense, which ever one gets approved.

A radical departure is a good thing, for the reasons you gave. But you should look at the sim video, and I can put up a link if you can't find it easily. They look ridiculous on track. I know it's just cartoons, but so is the car.

IF this is even intended to be a genuine prototype, it is a full ground effect car that will essentialy be steered from the rear via traction control. I don't want to see you run over the turtles on a medium speed corner. You'll be barrel rolling until fall.

That also makes it a car unlike any other to drive. What sort of problems that poses for first- timers is another issue.

$600K is the price shown for a turn key car. Times two, plus your own engine program or a lease deal for the several engines you'll need during the season.

The car cost isn't the problem today anyway. I could easily name six teams that have all their cars and equipment, but can't afford to run them.

So I'm hoping for radical too, and the red Dallara #3 looked like a good starting point to me. Not this shonkmobile, please.

[JagtechOhio]

I'm looking at pictures from the auto show, and it dawns on me...no way this is a ruse, unless Firestone is playing along with it.

I can understand why there were no Izod logos, and why the tires would have to be lettered Firestone: but the car didn't have to be displayed on their stage. Delta could have displayed the car any other way.

Bowlby had said that Firestone was involved at some point, and they would have helped define the basic requirements of the tires for this unorthadox design.

So either this is some big ruse that Firestone has agreed to participate in, or they consulted on the project and gave it their seal of satisfaction by presenting it on their stage. They'd have to think it's for real, or they don't put their name on it.

[rustyfan]

The Delta Wing looks like a concept that to the design team probably looked fun on paper but in reality just won't work. Looks like a death trap from the 50's to me, especially in regards to...

Originally Posted by Félix

Side protection is severely lacking. Do we want another Zanardi incident? At least expand the side pods air inlets forward so they're crushable structures.

Was just thinking the same thing. Not even top of the line nano-tech based materials would be strong enough to keep the car together if t-boned at a high speed, not to mention the complete lack of crushable zones would transfer a lot of impact energy to the driver.

Originally Posted by jondownunder

As far as I recall the roll hoop had nothing to do with Gonzalo's fatal injuries.

You are correct - Rodriguez suffered a basilar skull fracture from the impact with the concrete wall. He was dead before the car landed.

[climb]

Yes and it's also hard to me to imagine those weenies on a street course

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

You are correct - Rodriguez suffered a basilar skull fracture from the impact with the concrete wall. He was dead before the car landed.

So he died of the same thing Earnhardt died of? Wasn't the HANS device or similar neck restraints that were its predecessors required in open wheel at the time?

As far as I recall the roll hoop had nothing to do with Gonzalo's fatal injuries.

The only death I can think of where the roll hoop maybe played a role was the Budweiser exec that flipped over and died in a Grand-Am event at Homestead. Supposedly this was one of the reasons why Grand-Am went to having a closed cockpit for DPs.