ALMS 2012 Discussion

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I continue to disagree with your views on street circuits, but Barber on the other hand... one of my favourite tracks on the whole continent, wish GA would switch places with ALMS. Give us Barber and we'll trade you, I don't know, Mid-Ohio. GA would get better crowds than with the current stand-alone weekend.

I agree with you that the ALMS action on street courses is a lot better than Indycars and other single seater type racing. Granted, that isn't saying much. It could be much better than an Indycar race and still be pretty bad. Anyway, I'd prefer to go in a different direction so that we can get longer races and races with less probability of FCYs, but I would not have a problem with it as a general addition to the schedule if it is not a replacement for a real track.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I continue to disagree with your views on street circuits, but Barber on the other hand... one of my favourite tracks on the whole continent, wish GA would switch places with ALMS. Give us Barber and we'll trade you, I don't know, Mid-Ohio. GA would get better crowds than with the current stand-alone weekend.

Miami Bayfront
Bicentennial Park
Tamiami Park
West Palm Beach
Tampa
Grand Rapids
Bell Isle #1
Belle Isle #2
Detroit F1
Las Vegas F1
Las Vegas Champ Car
Phoenix F1
Phoenix Champ Car
Columbus
Dallas
Denver #1
Denver #2
Del Mar
Houston Reliant Park
Houston
Meadowlands
Minneapolis
New Orleans
San Antonio
San Jose


Sorry about our disagreement.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Las Vegas Champ Car
Denver #2
Houston Reliant Park
San Jose

These were killed killed in the concession of OWRS/Champ Car to the IRL. So we don't know what the future held for them. Though we can assume further futility in the Champ Car vs. IRL war.

Street courses certainly can be a risky proposition but when run well they can be successful. In spite of the IRL Long Beach continues to exist, Toronto is limping along. But yes, there is a lot of risk in a street course race, but there is a lot of risk in a road race. The two advantages road races have is the brunt of American circuits are established landmarks with solid fan bases (Mid-Ohio, Road America, Road Atlanta, The Glen etc.) and they aren't reliant on the cooperation of city governments.

Chris

EDIT: Oh, and generally the road races are in scenic national parks that promote camping and the weekend schedules can be easier to organize with test days being available in the week (and weeks) leading up to the event. On that note, I am tired of the ALMS being treated as a support series at the IRL street races and having terrible on-track times.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

These were killed killed in the concession of OWRS/Champ Car to the IRL. So we don't know what the future held for them. Though we can assume further futility in the Champ Car vs. IRL war.

Street courses certainly can be a risky proposition but when run well they can be successful. In spite of the IRL Long Beach continues to exist, Toronto is limping along. But yes, there is a lot of risk in a street course race, but there is a lot of risk in a road race. The two advantages road races have is the brunt of American circuits are established landmarks with solid fan bases (Mid-Ohio, Road America, Road Atlanta, The Glen etc.) and they aren't reliant on the cooperation of city governments.

Chris

EDIT: Oh, and generally the road races are in scenic national parks that promote camping and the weekend schedules can be easier to organize with test days being available in the week (and weeks) leading up to the event. On that note, I am tired of the ALMS being treated as a support series at the IRL street races and having terrible on-track times.

What risk is there for the series though? Ok, the cities and promotion companies take a big risk because these races usually end up losing a lot of money (my guess is that people like Penske promote races so that all the potential losses fall on someone else's shoulders), but it's all good for the series so as long as the sanctioning fee check clears. The only risk is that the race won't last for too many seasons.

The point about getting 2nd class treatment compared to the IRL is true. There is usually not a lot of track time for practice. Plus, street races are usually sprints. And, like I said earlier, there may be more FCYs.

[Purist]

I decided to tally up the permanent road courses with long-standing stature, that are considered "up-to-snuff", and I did NOT include rovals in this either. For the US, this is what I get:
1. Laguna Seca
2. Lime Rock
3. Mid Ohio
4. Portland
5. Road America
6. Road Atlanta
7. Sears Point
8. Sebring
9. Watkins Glen

That isn't very many venues, and there are HUGE geographic gaps left when only taking these nine into account. If we include Canada, the total comes up to 11, with the addition of Mosport and Mont Tremblant.

I've already had several people on here shoot down VIR as an option. There's virtually NOTHING in this middle portion of the country as far as a good, permanent venue is concerned; Heatland Park and Hallett don't exactly cut it. The old Brainerd isn't up to standards, and the new, shorter course isn't a good layout. Bridgehampton is gone (turned into a golf course).

For where the series would want to go into a new area, there really isn't an option apart from a temporary circuit. Too bad Riverside is gone, leaving Long Beach as the only real option in Southern California.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Purist

I decided to tally up the permanent road courses with long-standing stature, that are considered "up-to-snuff", and I did NOT include rovals in this either. For the US, this is what I get:
1. Laguna Seca
2. Lime Rock
3. Mid Ohio
4. Portland
5. Road America
6. Road Atlanta
7. Sears Point
8. Sebring
9. Watkins Glen

That isn't very many venues, and there are HUGE geographic gaps left when only taking these nine into account. If we include Canada, the total comes up to 11, with the addition of Mosport and Mont Tremblant.

I've already had several people on here shoot down VIR as an option. There's virtually NOTHING in this middle portion of the country as far as a good, permanent venue is concerned; Heatland Park and Hallett don't exactly cut it. The old Brainerd isn't up to standards, and the new, shorter course isn't a good layout. Bridgehampton is gone (turned into a golf course).

For where the series would want to go into a new area, there really isn't an option apart from a temporary circuit. Too bad Riverside is gone, leaving Long Beach as the only real option in Southern California.

Austin could be the "middle America" track that you are looking for. Ok, it is middle-South, but Mid-Ohio could be your middle-North track if that makes sense. Whether the ALMS can or will race at Austin is a whole different story.

[Purist]

Mid Ohio is practically in the Northeast.

The Austin venue could fill the Texas void, but those guys may be trying to cater solely to the international series: F1, MotoGP, V8 Supercars, WEC(?). And in all honesty, Texas is big enough with enough people, that like Florida and California, it could well support two events, in theory.

I think maybe there should be something closer to the I-70 corridor between Indianapolis and Denver. If they could add some facilities to High Plains Raceway, that might be a good option.

As far as the circuits themselves go though, I don't particularly dislike temporary circuits as a rule. IMSA and CART/CCWS have had a number of decent to very good temporary circuits: Miami (1986-95), Cleveland, Tampa, Vancouver, San Antonio (1990), and San Jose (2006-07).

And except for the old road courses, it's only at temporary circuits that you can get so close to the action. Let's face it, to attract fans you need to get them interested/excited, and a major part of that is stimulating their senses and giving them that feel of speed, proximity, and atmosphere. Many new, permanent road courses of Grade 2 and Grade 1 standard fail in this regard.

This has been removed some time ago from the company website, but Alan Wilson almost never provides infield access at his circuits. This makes operations easier and cheaper, but also cuts down on viewing opportunities, and closer-up viewing opportunities at actul spectator events.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Purist

Mid Ohio is practically in the Northeast.

The Austin venue could fill the Texas void, but those guys may be trying to cater solely to the international series: F1, MotoGP, V8 Supercars, WEC(?). And in all honesty, Texas is big enough with enough people, that like Florida and California, it could well support two events, in theory.

I think maybe there should be something closer to the I-70 corridor between Indianapolis and Denver. If they could add some facilities to High Plains Raceway, that might be a good option.

As far as the circuits themselves go though, I don't particularly dislike temporary circuits as a rule. IMSA and CART/CCWS have had a number of decent to very good temporary circuits: Miami (1986-95), Cleveland, Tampa, Vancouver, San Antonio (1990), and San Jose (2006-07).

And except for the old road courses, it's only at temporary circuits that you can get so close to the action. Let's face it, to attract fans you need to get them interested/excited, and a major part of that is stimulating their senses and giving them that feel of speed, proximity, and atmosphere. Many new, permanent road courses of Grade 2 and Grade 1 standard fail in this regard.

This has been removed some time ago from the company website, but Alan Wilson almost never provides infield access at his circuits. This makes operations easier and cheaper, but also cuts down on viewing opportunities, and closer-up viewing opportunities at actul spectator events.

Ok, true, I guess the notion of Ohio and Texas being "middle America" is pretty laughable from the perspective of someone in Kansas!

So what about Oklahoma City? I don't think those rumors are "dead" yet as they keep popping up every now and then.

[Speed-King]

How viable would be an airfield race somewhere in the middle of the US? Seems a lot easier to me to set up than a full blown street circuit and they usually make for really good racing.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Purist

I decided to tally up the permanent road courses with long-standing stature, that are considered "up-to-snuff", and I did NOT include rovals in this either. For the US, this is what I get:
1. Laguna Seca
2. Lime Rock
3. Mid Ohio
4. Portland
5. Road America
6. Road Atlanta
7. Sears Point
8. Sebring
9. Watkins Glen

That isn't very many venues, and there are HUGE geographic gaps left when only taking these nine into account. If we include Canada, the total comes up to 11, with the addition of Mosport and Mont Tremblant.

I've already had several people on here shoot down VIR as an option. There's virtually NOTHING in this middle portion of the country as far as a good, permanent venue is concerned; Heatland Park and Hallett don't exactly cut it. The old Brainerd isn't up to standards, and the new, shorter course isn't a good layout. Bridgehampton is gone (turned into a golf course).

For where the series would want to go into a new area, there really isn't an option apart from a temporary circuit. Too bad Riverside is gone, leaving Long Beach as the only real option in Southern California.

Although it is not that simple,GARRA ran on courses that seem to not be "up to snuff" what ever arrogant status that would be for the IMSA, a series not far from going belly-up.
Of course that could be one of the reasons it is not far from going belly-up.
The original IMSA ran where people wanted them, and that was not part of the reason it died.
The reason it died was the same as now, it offered little in the end for anyone to care about.
I do not think being asininely arrogant about tracks being "up to snuff" is anything the IMSA can afford to be an ass about.

Although eleven tracks is more than enough, if the series offers what pay spectators want.

Middle of America is more often seen as a being within x miles from Detroit, or at least was back in hot and heavy gear-head days.
Geographically it would be Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas.

Texas is in no way middle of America. It suffers from being not really the south or the west, especially as East Texans and West Texans see themselves as being from different parts of the US, or at least one West Texas instructor told me so.

If the IMSA is going to be as narrow-minded as some here seem to be, I think it is time for the fat lady to sing.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

How viable would be an airfield race somewhere in the middle of the US? Seems a lot easier to me to set up than a full blown street circuit and they usually make for really good racing.

Well, first you would have to find an airport that is close to a population base and has the capability of being closed or heavily restricted for a handful of days. Then you would have to find someone willing to promote the race. That might be difficult. I don't think you will find as many people wanting to promote a race in St. Louis or Omaha as there would be in Miami or LA. Obviously road racing has a history with the central US, but the interest to hold races appears to be mainly on/near the ocean coasts.

[Purist]

Well, a number of the airfield circuits used by DTM/ITC/DRM would NOT have made for good racing in CART or the ALMS, I think. Cleveland was excellent. The initial Edmonton layout was good. This new one is okay, but they've just about managed to make a street circuit out of it.

Most airfields are too small for something like this. Many of the old SAC airbases aren't maintained well enough, so it would take major funding to repave a large portion of the airport to make it usable for top-tier racing cars. Also, if it's even remotely active, the FAA is probably going to be rather anal retentive about getting approvals to run a race there.

Of course, viewing for an airfield circuit will pretty much be confined to the periphery of the course. And I can't see well enough to appreciate being able to see large parts of any racetrack from a single vantage point, so that aspect is almost completely lost on me.

EDIT: Bob, tracks are licensed by grades by the FIA. Different categories of cars are permitted to race on tracks, based upon whether those tracks are of an adequate grade level. If you violate that, the FIA can sanction your series, and revoke the competition licenses of the drivers in said series. ANY series in North America that has an international element is subject to the whims of the FIA, even NASCAR, since Montoya, Ambrose, and Villeneuve are NOT from the United States. Also, the involvement of Toyota may give grounds for oversight as well.

[Duff_44]

Scott Tucker is in the news... and not in a good way.

For Americans struggling in this economy, an advance on a paycheck can be a lifeline. These advances - also known as payday loans - have become a fast-growing business online, with nearly $11 billion lent out last year.

The CBS News/Center for Public Integrity investigation found that the Colorado and West Virginia attorneys general have pursued these lending operations. In court papers they claim Scott Alan Tucker is a key player. Tucker spent a year in federal prison in 1991 for fraudulent business loans.
Today, the 49-old-year-old Tucker enjoys a high-octane lifestyle. He races a fleet of expensive cars, and flies on a $14 million corporate jet. An $8 million home in Aspen is listed in his wife's name and the property taxes, we discovered, were paid by AMG Services.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...html?tag=stack

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Duff_44

Scott Tucker is in the news... and not in a good way.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...html?tag=stack

I knew about Tucker's business and the Indian tribe loophole situation, but I did not know he was an ex-con. But, yeah, pay day loans are essentially legal loan sharking and I would not be surprised if some of those players aren't fully legal at that. Plus, it is never shocking when a sports car player is involved with white collar crime. I believe Jon Field may be under investigation by the IRS as well, although the details are sketchy in that situation.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Duff_44

Scott Tucker is in the news... and not in a good way.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...html?tag=stack

Suprise factor: 0

[AGD]

Here's another story that goes more in-depth into Tucker's business practices. It looks like there will be another article about Tucker, or at least the type of business he conducts, later on this week.

What Tucker doesn’t publicize: he is an ex-convict who runs a controversial business that regulators in at least five states have tried to shut down for violating their laws. Hiding behind a labyrinth of shell companies and operating from the ether of the Internet, Tucker’s businesses make payday loans over the Web even in states where they are outlawed. He offers quick cash to people desperate enough to borrow money from a faceless Web site, even signing over access to their bank account to total strangers. And he charges nearly 800 percent interest on loans that take months to pay off.

But, hey, what's new in the world of racing?

[Jonerz]

This is picking at straws and off the mark, but does anyone believe the money he is getting to put Microsoft logos on his car are paying for much of any of his racing activities?

Chris

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

This is picking at straws and off the mark, but does anyone believe the money he is getting to put Microsoft logos on his car are paying for much of any of his racing activities?

Chris

I highly doubt it. It's probably more of a token sponsorship. It's Tucker's hobby pretty much.

Between Andy Evans and Tucker, anyone with Microsoft connections, even if they are highly distant and external, must be viewed suspiciously by the sports car community! Let's just hope Tucker does not make Don any unbelievable offers.

That CBS News story that was linked earlier seems to be very popular. My local newspaper had a link to it on it's front page and I saw it as a main news link on Google News. I guess Scott Tucker was hoping to make a splash this week, but not in this manner. Oh well, I doubt the people he swindles read those stories anyway.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by AGD

Between Andy Evans and Tucker, anyone with Microsoft connections, even if they are highly distant and external, must be viewed suspiciously by the sports car community! Let's just hope Tucker does not make Don any unbelievable offers.

We've all thought that then, huh? Haha.

If Scott is a bad man, and he has done that intentionally, putting Microsoft on the side, he must be a sociopath trying to hurt us sports car fans so!

Chris

[Joe Taylor]

And he charges nearly 800 percent interest on loans that take months to pay off.

Is that all? I'm pretty sure the companies over here charge more than that.

[The Badger]

800% ..... thats bad but , people know about this when they enter the contract , so Its their own fault .

Trying to close an opp down if its illegal . If its really illegal , there would be no tryin , it would be closed down , at least here it would be .

And so what if he has served time . He doesnt have to broadcast that if he doesnt want to either .

While I may not agree with his ethics ..... who here hasnt tried to dodge the tax man at some stage . I know I have , and I dont feel bad about that either .

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Trying to close an opp down if its illegal . If its really illegal , there would be no tryin , it would be closed down , at least here it would be .

It's not simple in this case to say whether it is legal or illegal. This isn't so clear cut because it deals with Indian sovereignty laws that we have in the US as well as other issues. It's not unusual for people trying to do things that are normally illegal to make a deal with an Indian tribe to take advantage of their sovereignty. Anyway, Tucker is either legally exploiting loopholes or is illegally operating businesses and is getting away with it.

[Mal]

Dagys has just tweeted that if some of the rumours he has heard are true then ALMS could have more P1's than WEC next year

[Fogelhund]

johndagys John Dagys
#ALMS LMP1 could end up with a higher car count than #WEC LMP1 next year considering the rumors I've been hearing.
50 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

» johndagys John Dagys
Wow, just heard some possible encouraging news regarding #ALMS LMP1 in 2012. Hope to have story later in week.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure if I buy that, however grid numbers should improve considering that next year it'll be the one and only place where you can be on the overall podium with petrol engine. Plus if those WEC testing limitations come into place.