Sportscar/GT (and Le Mans) Rumours and Repetition

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Artur

This year, it was possible to compare the Michelin and Pirelli GT tires during the Nurburgring 24h. The Michelin Bentley was 6 seconds faster than the Pirelli Bentley on qualifying, and the fastest race lap of the Michelin car was 4s faster than that of the Pirelli.

Hmmm, interesting to 'translate' that to a more regular, much shorter course.

Let's say the faster Bentley did a 8m20 in qualifying and around 8:30 in the race and the regular lap time on a shorter track is 1m45/1m50 (Q vs R). That would give you a deficit for the slower, Pirelli shod Bentley of around 1 and a quarter second in Q and 86/100 of a second in race trim.

Those are not huge gaps and it's only based on times from one car (Bentley) and around the Ring - not very representative I would think and a direct comparison at a regular track would be much more defining. And that's leaving driving combinations and weather conditions out of the equation.

Agreed that the Michelin seem the quicker of the two but I wouldn't call the Pirelli "much slower" (yet)!

[Artur]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think he meant Pirelli's tire in general vs its competition. Thats why he said in F1 when there were choices, the Pirelli was slower.

Yes, this was my point

This is how the tire companies ranks in terms of annual R&D investment:

Bridgestone/Michelin= over €650m
Goodyear( owner of Dunlop outside Japan where Sumitomo has the brand) = €350m
Continental = €220m
Pirelli= €200m
Hankook=€150m
Yokohama=€105m


@Coach Ep, agree with everything you said. I just posted that as an indication. It's hard to read too much given the few amount of data to compare. But, anyway, I think it speaks volumes the fact the all the front runners chooses Michelin when they could pick Yokohama, Pirelli, Dunlops.....

If Pirelli thinks their tire is really good, they should supply on TUSC's GTLM where competition is allowed.

PS: These numbers I took from each company's official annual financial report, so they are no guess.

[Coach Ep]

Michelin is the premium tire brand these days and most likely spends a significant part of that R&D amount on tire supplies, hence so many frontrunners go with them.

Slightly off topic here but had to buy a new tire for the car the other day, it came with Michelins when it was purchased and one replacement had a price tag of a little over $300! Three hundred dollars for one tire on a regular streetcar (crossover/SUV type)!!!

Needless to say I went with the considerable cheaper Goodyear tire (> $125 cheaper!) that had the same specs.

No wonder Michelin can spend that much on 'R&D'!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Michelin is the premium tire brand these days and most likely spends a significant part of that R&D amount on tire supplies, hence so many frontrunners go with them.

Slightly off topic here but had to buy a new tire for the car the other day, it came with Michelins when it was purchased and one replacement had a price tag of a little over $300! Three hundred dollars for one tire on a regular streetcar (crossover/SUV type)!!!

Needless to say I went with the considerable cheaper Goodyear tire (> $125 cheaper!) that had the same specs.

No wonder Michelin can spend that much on 'R&D'!

Heh, just got new Michs as well.... but they were 60% cheaper than the Contis or Dunlops I had originally in mind! I hadn't really considered Michelins because I was pretty sure they'd be out of my price range.

[chernaudi]

Bit OT, but you can consider BF Goodrich, which is owned by Michelin and might be cheaper. Or Uniroyal, which is owned by Michelin.

Much like the car industry itself, there's brand groups all over the place. Such as Bridgestone/Firestone/Prime Well, Goodyear/Dunlop/Falken/Sumitomo, et al. The only tire company that I don't think is owned by someone else nor has other divisions linked to it is Pirelli. Hoosier also counts as independant, though they have a close alliance with Continental/General.

[Artur]

Correct chernaudi, Michelin purchased the originally American companies BF Goodrich and Uniroyal as Bridgestone have done with Firestone and Continental with General.

If you look into market share in the US(I couldn't find worldwide), GoodYear, Michelin and Bridgestone(and all of their brands) completely dominates the USA's and Canadian markets:
2010- http://www.moderntiredealer.com/uplo.../mtd-34-35.pdf
2011- http://www.moderntiredealer.com/uplo...d-28-30-32.pdf
2013 - http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...united-states/

Michelin is the only non-Japanese tire manufacturer with strong market share in Japan:
http://www.technavio.com/report/pass...ares-2015-2019

GoodYear is relatively weak outside of NA, so that's why they lag behind the other two so much in revenue and R&D expenses.

Anyway, Tire Rack is the biggest retailer worldwide, IIRC, and they have performance tests and consumer reviews of the tires:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/survey...ay.jsp?type=MP

Pretty ridiculous that the Michelin Pilot Super Sport is superior in each and every aspect: cornering stability, dry traction, tread wear.... etc Also curious how Michelin PS2 is the second best ranked.

Why would anyone buy any other tire in the category "Max Performance Summer" if not for price? It's the best in wet and dry, lowest noise, best ride confort and lowest tread wear. You couldn't market better. The price might be quite huge, though.

No surprise that the top sellers(Bridgestone, Michelin, Goodyear, Continental) are the best ranked. Pirelli sells more than Hankook but the Korean has better rated tires there.

There is also more tech comparison made by tire rack experts:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=174

There is even stuff like Average Cornering on Dry (g-Force): Bridgestone Potenza S-04 Pole Position 0.91G, Dunlop Sport Maxx RT 0.92G, Michelin Pilot Super Sport 0.98G and Yokohama ADVAN Sport V105 0.94G and many more

[chernaudi]

And back on topic, at least somewhat, I'd invite anyone to go on Hoosier Tire's site under the ecommerce section ( https://www.hoosiertire.com/ecommerc...sp?SubCatID=17 ), you'll find on sale Continental racing slicks and wet weather tires similar to what is used in Conti Challenge. Hoosier does manufacture those tires for the IMSA Conti series.

It should be noted that Continental and General have no direct ownership role in Hoosier (the Newton family still own the company), but Hoosier has had a technical and strategic partnership with Continental/General since the 1980s, with Hoosier helping to develop Continental/General racing tires and Conti helping Hoosier with their line of road legal/DOT tires.

Also of note is that in ARCA, Continental and Hoosier have decided to brand the ARCA Hoosier tires as General tires next season.

[ATLFalconsFAN]

Someone above mentioned the fact that the OE Michelin tire on his SUV was $300. I ran into a similar situation with my Subaru BRZ. The OE tire is a Michelin Primacy HP. While not a bad tire it wasn't a great tire. They were super noisy and they didn't have a ton of grip, but after all, part of the purpose of the car was the ability to break loose and perhaps the tire choice helped with that.

What I found interesting was when it came time to ditch the OE tire I looked at prices on tire rack. The Primacy HP was stupid expensive, much more expensive than their top of the line Pilot Super Sport. It seems that in many cases the OE tire is more expensive and you're much better off paying less to get superior tires from the same brand rather than getting another set of what originally came on your car. It seemed that part of the extra expense of the Primacy HP is due to the fact that they are made in France, rather than many of their other tires that are made in the US. Maybe it's also a matter of quantity of sales as an OE tire won't sell as many as the replacements?

Anyway, I ditched the Primacy HP for a set of Pilot Sport AS/3s. I use those as my all season tire (actually switched back on to them this week). I managed to get another set of wheels and when I did bought a set of Pilot Super Sports for my Summer (March until October) tires. Both tires are amazing, however it is very tough going back to the AS/3 after a Summer with the PSS, the Super Sports are ridiculously grippy. I have a friend who has a super charged FR-S while my BRZ is bone stock. On a Summer drive in the mountains even with his 50% more HP I easily kept ahead of my friend due to the fact I destroyed him in the twisty bits because of my tires and his OE tires.

I also find it interesting that the price of tires fluctuates greatly based on the price of a barrel of oil. These past months have been an excellent time to buy tires!

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

Someone above mentioned the fact that the OE Michelin tire on his SUV was $300. I ran into a similar situation with my Subaru BRZ. The OE tire is a Michelin Primacy HP. While not a bad tire it wasn't a great tire. They were super noisy and they didn't have a ton of grip, but after all, part of the purpose of the car was the ability to break loose and perhaps the tire choice helped with that.

What I found interesting was when it came time to ditch the OE tire I looked at prices on tire rack. The Primacy HP was stupid expensive, much more expensive than their top of the line Pilot Super Sport. It seems that in many cases the OE tire is more expensive and you're much better off paying less to get superior tires from the same brand rather than getting another set of what originally came on your car. It seemed that part of the extra expense of the Primacy HP is due to the fact that they are made in France, rather than many of their other tires that are made in the US. Maybe it's also a matter of quantity of sales as an OE tire won't sell as many as the replacements?

Anyway, I ditched the Primacy HP for a set of Pilot Sport AS/3s. I use those as my all season tire (actually switched back on to them this week). I managed to get another set of wheels and when I did bought a set of Pilot Super Sports for my Summer (March until October) tires. Both tires are amazing, however it is very tough going back to the AS/3 after a Summer with the PSS, the Super Sports are ridiculously grippy. I have a friend who has a super charged FR-S while my BRZ is bone stock. On a Summer drive in the mountains even with his 50% more HP I easily kept ahead of my friend due to the fact I destroyed him in the twisty bits because of my tires and his OE tires.

I also find it interesting that the price of tires fluctuates greatly based on the price of a barrel of oil. These past months have been an excellent time to buy tires!

You could probably keep those PSSs on the car until Thanksgiving and put them back on after Valentine's Day.

I'm sorry we didn't get to hang out at PLM, but I wasn't going to leave my canopy after suffering through Thursday and Friday.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

The OE tire is a Michelin Primacy HP. While not a bad tire it wasn't a great tire. They were super noisy and they didn't have a ton of grip.

The Primacy HP was stupid expensive, much more expensive than their top of the line Pilot Super Sport.

Curiously enough, they are the best ranked in the category, albeit there are just 5 other competitors
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/survey...ay.jsp?type=GT

I took a quick look for prizes on the 255/40R19 size and this is it(ordered as they are ranked on tirerack.com):

Michelin PILOT SUPER SPORT $274.90
Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 $265.90
Bridgestone Potenza S-04 Pole Position $220.86
CONTINENTAL CONTISPORTCONTACT 5P $300.12
CONTINENTAL EXTREMECONTACT DW $218.75
GOODYEAR EAGLE F1 ASYMMETRIC 2 $272.99
HANKOOK VENTUS V12 EVO 2 $196.30


I definetely wouldn't buy the PS2, CONTISPORTCONTACT 5P and EAGLE F1 ASYMMETRIC 2.

The Potenza S-04 Pole Position seems like a very good option. It lags behind the Michelin PILOT SUPER SPORT on every aspect, but not hugely. The only downside seems to be the tread wear but it's quite a cheap tire, afterall.

[TheMightyM]

NASCAR’s 2016 schedule is out, and it comes with an interesting twist. Per the Charlotte Observer:

NASCAR released its 2016 Sprint Cup and Xfinity Series schedules Monday and also announced it has reached five-year agreements with 23 tracks.

That’s significant news because NASCAR has usually worked on a year-to-year basis with its tracks. This allows NASCAR to lock in tracks for the next five years, but not necessarily dates, which will be set each year.

There are only minor schedule changes as compared to the 2015 schedule.

The WEC to Road America rumors were apparently (?) dependent upon NASCAR’s top series (Sprint Cup) also coming to Road America. This announcement makes the NASCAR side of that seem rather unlikely. If NASCAR coming was indeed a necessary step (for financial reasons) for Road America to be upgraded to Grade 1 status (or something close enough to make the WEC happy), then that’s almost certainly dead, and with it the chances that the WEC would race in Wisconsin if/when COTA falls through/is found to be unworkable.

[Bob Baldwin]

Somewhat Fluff !!! Really only ISC [France Org ] and SMI { Bruton Smith Org [ are owners of 95% of the race tracks . !!! Really how many people make their vacation plans 5 years out ?

[FormulaFox]

This is not the bombshell I've been sitting on(NDAs still in effect, got to protect my source), but I've got an interesting new rumor hitting my inbox...

Apparently some independent owners are attempting to start, with SCCA sanctioning, a sports prototype series for non-wing cars - instead of wings, large 1990s Trans Am style spoilers on the back, and the cars are much like LMP3 - open chassis design(aside from dimensional and safety regs and the aforementioned wing ban, of course) but be built around a spec engine that will either be a Ford Ecoboost or an unspecified GM crate motor.

I have no reason to assume at this time that there is any truth to this rumor, but still...Interesting concept. With the end of Sports 2000 in SCCA club racing there aren't any non-wing prototype classes above Spec Racer Ford that I'm aware of, and S2000 didn't have giant spoilers in place of wings anyway. This idea has me VERY intrigued...

[fausto]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

This is not the bombshell I've been sitting on(NDAs still in effect, got to protect my source), but I've got an interesting new rumor hitting my inbox...

Apparently some independent owners are attempting to start, with SCCA sanctioning, a sports prototype series for non-wing cars - instead of wings, large 1990s Trans Am style spoilers on the back, and the cars are much like LMP3 - open chassis design(aside from dimensional and safety regs and the aforementioned wing ban, of course) but be built around a spec engine that will either be a Ford Ecoboost or an unspecified GM crate motor.

I have no reason to assume at this time that there is any truth to this rumor, but still...Interesting concept. With the end of Sports 2000 in SCCA club racing there aren't any non-wing prototype classes above Spec Racer Ford that I'm aware of, and S2000 didn't have giant spoilers in place of wings anyway. This idea has me VERY intrigued...

Reminds me of specs Inter Proto Series from Japan http://www.interproto.jp/interprotoseries/kuruma.html

[GingerPixel]

Originally Posted by fausto

Reminds me of specs Inter Proto Series from Japan http://www.interproto.jp/interprotoseries/kuruma.html

What fine looking racing automobiles.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by fausto

Reminds me of specs Inter Proto Series from Japan http://www.interproto.jp/interprotoseries/kuruma.html

Well, they look great despite being the same.

Now back on topic, I wonder if SCCA's new prototype series will finally allow LMP3 cars apart from having LMP3-based open-cockpit ones?

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

NASCAR’s 2016 schedule is out, and it comes with an interesting twist. Per the Charlotte Observer:



There are only minor schedule changes as compared to the 2015 schedule.

The WEC to Road America rumors were apparently (?) dependent upon NASCAR’s top series (Sprint Cup) also coming to Road America. This announcement makes the NASCAR side of that seem rather unlikely. If NASCAR coming was indeed a necessary step (for financial reasons) for Road America to be upgraded to Grade 1 status (or something close enough to make the WEC happy), then that’s almost certainly dead, and with it the chances that the WEC would race in Wisconsin if/when COTA falls through/is found to be unworkable.

Not entirely. The Sprint Cup date is still scheduled for 2017.

I'm waiting to hear more.

[Victor_RO]

Judd/AIM are fine-tuning the old GV5.5 V10 LMP1 engine to LMP1-L specifications for any teams that might want to run it.

http://www.engdev.com/aim-lmp1-engine/

And as it's a development of a well-proven racing engine, it's being marketed as a safe and cost-effective alternative for teams.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Judd/AIM are fine-tuning the old GV5.5 V10 LMP1 engine to LMP1-L specifications for any teams that might want to run it.

http://www.engdev.com/aim-lmp1-engine/

And as it's a development of a well-proven racing engine, it's being marketed as a safe and cost-effective alternative for teams.

It would be neat to see the old v10 back in action, but I'm doubting they will have any takers. Don't see the current teams switching, perhaps somebody new?

[Matt]

Put big spoilers on the back of the GT cars again pls.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by fausto

Reminds me of specs Inter Proto Series from Japan http://www.interproto.jp/interprotoseries/kuruma.html

Sort of, but it seemed to me like they were going for open-top cars with more open aero. Like open-top LMPs without wings.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Matt

Put big spoilers on the back of the GT cars again pls.

I've been wanting that in Trans-Am since the series revived. That helped make Trans-Am unique in the 90s. Let the GTE and GT3 cars have their wings, but go back to huge spoilers in TA and TA2.

[chernaudi]

Well, we know where Judd got their rumored 4.4 V8 from--it was just the AIM V10 with two cylinders chopped off. It seems that this time they've gone full monty with adapting the V10 to the LMP1 L rules instead of a 4.4 V8 conversion.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Sort of, but it seemed to me like they were going for open-top cars with more open aero. Like open-top LMPs without wings.

Like this?:

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by CTD

Like this?:

No.... I'm rapid-prototyping a little model of what I saw in my head when it was described to me. I'll post a photo when it's done.