What is the BEST touring car Series??

[TSR]

After watching some OS races I would have to rate the following as the best touring car series

1.BTCC
2.DTM
3.WTC
4 V8


It seems that all the OS series due actually have passing in the races and do have more than two manufactors.
Good old Black Wiggle so called best in the world in going backwards at 100mph.

I really do not what the answer is for the Black Wiggle but the v8 are no longer king of the hill.
The recent BTCC that I watch was one the best touring car racers, it had passing, rubbing and even punting cars off, it had everything something that the supertaxi have lacked in a long time.

Any thought people.

[Raglanparade]

punting happens and bumping happens because it is allowed...

if it happened in the v8s... people would squeel and drive through penalties would result.

[James63]

Did we watch the BTCC snetterton race tonight did we??? I don't miss the BTCC if I can help it..I know fox sports are a long way behind in showing the races (and they show them at odd times)....

I didn't see all of the coverage tonight, but I saw the third race....and what a brilliant race it was - something I can't say about V8's all year. What amazes me more is how close the different brands are....they have BMW (RWD), Seat, Vauxhall, Honda (civic and accura(?)), Alfa, MG...They even have a Diesel powered car on the grid. Yet we see a mix of these brands all fighting in the top 10 and all taking wins...Compare this to the V8's where we see more often then not a pole to win or predictable race.

Don't know how they do it, but the BTCC currently have a good formula going...and having not seen the DTM or WTCC this year, I put BTCC at #1.

[Guss]

Ask Paul Radisich, he should know

[WebberForWDC]

It's true that V8 Supercars may have the worse racing of the lot? But surely it goes without saying that light nimble tourers are bound to be more lively than great big lumbering beasts. As for how the DTM cars with more downforce than a truckload of bricks and suspension as stiff as any formula car can manage passing and dicing, that seems a mystery though?

Anyway if the races were much shorter say 30 minutes and they had a lot more grip, then perhaps there would be a lot of frantic overtaking with the race ending before the field got too strung out and the extra grip would give incentive to throw the car into desperate overtaking moves with some confidence that it would have enough grip to hang onto the track?

[eelboi]

tough question !
i'm greedy. it would be good to be able to see all of them.

[banksie]

You want pushing and bumping... Did you watch Oran Park? How many drive through penalties were issued in race 3? It would appear to be the direction V8's are currently going

Do people support the reverse top 10 in BTCC as well?

How many manufactures are in DTM currently? I thought only 2.

But then this thread comes down to what people describe as 'Best'. 20 cars qualifying within a second of pole is pretty good, but is it on the right track to 'Best'?.

[racer69]

I've seen every round of the V8Supercars, DTM, BTCC and WTCC this year, and our tourers (in my opinion) do compare rather favourably;

BTCC - A heap of close racing this year, some fantastic stuff, but it must be remembered the driving standards are far more relaxed than in Australia, and some of the tactics employed are disgraceful. Plus the fact the cars are rather......boring?

WTCC - For me the World Series has been spoilt this year by the constant rule changes to keep each manufacturer happy (think of the last few days of Group C in Australia). The races haven't been that great either, the BTCC seems to have put on better Super 2000 racing than the world championship equivalent. For what its worth though the Swedish round at Anderstorp, a wet-dry race, was rather good.

DTM - The races are spoilt by the contrived pitstops, during which they must make two of them. The races are abit processional, but they are exciting cars to watch.

V8Supercars are flawed no doubt, suffering from things these other series also do, but certainly it is no worse than the 3 other major touring car championships in the world.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by banksie

Do people support the reverse top 10 in BTCC as well?

It's not top ten anymore.

The grid for the first race is decided by quali, for the second it's the order they finished in race 1 (no reversing). The winner of race 2 spins a wheel thing which will decide how many cars will be reversed.

In WTCC it's 2 races and the top 8 of race one are reversed.

This is to stop a tactic that was used by Jason Plato a few years back - slowing down drastically (sometimes even hammering on the brakes on the pit straight of the last lap) if he was near the back of the top ten - the better grid position is worth more than 1 or 2 points.

Do I support it? Yes. It is good as it separates fast drivers that can't overtake from ones that are fast but can. And it throws up some good surprises.

[safc_fan89]

BTCC has poor driving standards because bad driving is not penalised. And the cars are less than thrilling, but so what? They are the same cars that are in the WTCC, except there are no Integras in the WTCC, I don't think.

[NAC]

I hate reverse grid racing of any form with a passion. Why should the driver that is doing well get penilised.

V8 Supercars
DTM
NZ V8 Tourers
WTC
BTCC

[FPV GTHO]

If they had the technical regs of DTM and the sporting regs of the V8 Supercars, they'd be onto a winner.

[Pro Racer]

i like all of them for certain reasons, so i really can't pick a best.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

They are the same cars that are in the WTCC, except there are no Integras in the WTCC, I don't think.

It's because they are BTC Touring (the old rules, the cars are being grandfathered in - there's little real difference though unless there are any pit stops which you don't get in the BTCC unless the weather folds).

The Integras, Kartworld's MGs and Erkut's Astra Sport Hatch are BTC-T. There were also BTC-T Astra Coupes, Proton Impians, Pug 307 and a lot more cars, some of them are in Britcar now IIRC.

[garbo6]

The first post mentions the series have more than two manufacturers.

DTM only has Audi and Mercedes and this was highlighted today when all the Audis pulled out of the race after 4 incidents where Mercs collided with Audis.

[touringlegend]

It's worth remembering that the BTCC only has two works teams (one of which is involved at world level, and without that I doubt there'd be a national programme), the WTCC has four, but Alfa Romeo have almost no involvement, infact in yesterday's Brands Hatch coverage it was mentioned the car James Thompson is driving is 3 years old !

[Woolley]

BTCC is just a bunch of hooligans with the most appalling driving standards. If I want to watch dodgems, I'll go the the fairground. I avoid them avidly and put them bottom of the list. Unfortunately, the list is a sympton of there really aren't any really good TC series at the moment. The V8s have dipped due to increasing politics and something seems to have gone wrong with the racing - they've got too precise meaning one line and no passing, although individually they're good sounding and you can see how hard they're working. DTM are exciting on their own, but they're really sportscars, and the team shenanigans devalue the results too much. WTCC are dreary. Slow, overgripped, dreadful sound and bad tempered on the whole. The only good thing about BTCC/WTCC is no pitstops. I detest the artificice of unnecessary pitstops which seems to be affecting nearly all 'professional' level series and adversely affects the racing. Fine if you need to refuel and retyre (Bathurst/Sandown) but not if you don't.

In theory, V8s should be the best - big, heavy powerful cars take longer to stop and should provide passing opportunities, yet it's not happening. Tyres? An awkward middle ground at the moment as the cars have got better at using what they've got, so there's either too much grip form the compound, or not enough from the footprint.

[touringlegend]

Originally Posted by Woolley

BTCC is just a bunch of hooligans with the most appalling driving standards.

Oh come on thats not a fair description - look how well Colin Turkington has fared in the WTCC this weekend..

[Woolley]

I've given up with them, and plenty of marshals have done the same (although to be fair there's a number that can't get enough of them - the likelihood of getting something to do is high!) It's virtually a full contact sport these days, which obviously has a following. I'm not suggesting that the drivers aren't good enough, but the discipline is dreadful and has tacit approval of the management. Therein lies the problem, since what's seen at this level filters down to the lower classes. Single seater racing has been largely destroyed by the squeeze down the straight (the 'one move' rule) and saloons are being spoiled by the rear-quarter shove. On that basis, I stick by my opinion, although perhaps the wording was a bit strong.

[RotorFan]

I would say its a tie between WTCC and V8s. Watching the BMWs race through Pau and Macau is something else

Neither are perfect series' though.

[bazil]

NASCAR and Supercar.

NASCAR because it’s easily the best show in the world both live (at the event) and on TV, and Supercar because it’s applied some NASCAR formula with AUSSIE flavour.

I would like to see Supercars technically dumbed down a bit with less aero, brakes and data. Making them move around under braking a bit more and place more emphasis on driver direct feedback. I also agree the odd event should have short sprint races perhaps for greater points to encourage more passing.

[bestfit]

It looks like DTM has it own problems with driver standards.

Audi withdraws all cars mid-race

[Robert Ryan]

NASCAR because it’s easily the best show in the world both live (at the event) and on TV, and Supercar because it’s applied some NASCAR formula with AUSSIE flavour.

Agreed the race at Montreal was like the good old days of V8Supercars without the increasing "poltical correctness" that has been creeping in.

[AMRS - Survey]

Originally Posted by bazil

NASCAR and Supercar.

NASCAR because it’s easily the best show in the world both live (at the event) and on TV, and Supercar because it’s applied some NASCAR formula with AUSSIE flavour.

Beg to differ. NASCAR is one of the more attrocious things to watch on tv for more than 2 laps.

Speaking of driving standards, that montreal event didnt stack up to well.

[peckstar]

NASCAR is probably the best motorsport we get in australia. we can get it live for a start. it is competitive, there is passing and you dont know who is going to win until the end, plus you get the advantage of an enduro race where the driver getes to improve the car over the race