[WEC] 2014 FIA World Endurance Championship

[ger80]

You can just enter a GTE at the ring, not? Obviously will get a different BOP

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by ger80

You can just enter a GTE at the ring, not? Obviously will get a different BOP

GTE/GT2 cars used to go into SP7 or SP8 depending on engine size, SP Pro is now a class for cars around GT3 pace that don't fit in any category. Which might include any GTE cars entered.

Latest GTE cars I can remember being entered at the N24 were the Farnbacher Ferrari 458 in SP8 and a Manthey 997 RSR in SP7 in 2011.

[carbon_titanium]

and the M3 from bmw schnitzer, even if was not full GT2/GTE specs. Anyway also the farnbacher 458 had a diffuser banned in GTE, and last year debuted a manthey 997 GT3 RSR powered by an unusual 4.4L

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

and the M3 from bmw schnitzer, even if was not full GT2/GTE specs. Anyway also the farnbacher 458 had a diffuser banned in GTE, and last year debuted a manthey 997 GT3 RSR powered by an unusual 4.4L

Yes, but for that Ferrari the chassis and engine were GTE-spec. Modifications for SP7/SP8 were related to more extreme aero allowed by N24 rules, slightly different restrictors, more durable suspension and mandatory installation of ABS. And back in 2010, Farnbacher were able to convert their 430 GT2 from the Spa 1000km LMS race for the N24 within less than a week.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

GTE/GT2 cars used to go into SP7 or SP8 depending on engine size, SP Pro is now a class for cars around GT3 pace that don't fit in any category. Which might include any GTE cars entered.

Latest GTE cars I can remember being entered at the N24 were the Farnbacher Ferrari 458 in SP8 and a Manthey 997 RSR in SP7 in 2011.

Bmw Raced The M3 GT2 in EX-P1. Won the race in 2010

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Viper isn't sold in Europe and they even have hard time justifying (for their board of directors) running even Le Mans, so they will never ever enter WEC.

Corvette doesn't care of WEC, they've said it from time and time again (even as recently as Le Mans). And I don't think two NA events would change anything in that respect, it's still just two rounds. Especially if that other race besides southern tilkedrome wasn't even in US, but Canada.

WEC GTE gets crappy coverage too, it's LMP1 and "some other cars". Even USCC makes better marketing for their GTs

Anyway I would have third of the races in North America if I was in charge.

Have you read the viper thread? Theyre in talks of having a Viper run in the wec next year. Viper has a gt3 in Europe in the Supercar series, just took victory at Nurburgring few weeks ago.

[chernaudi]

And the GT3 version has been raced in Europe with some success as well.

The whole deal with the Viper program was that it was branded as a SRT, which as a stand-alone make (rather than an in-house performance tuner) didn't work or make sense at Chrysler. Hence, all SRT performance models are branded as Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep X-model SRT.

Since late May, thusly, the SRT Viper is properly known now as a Dodge Viper SRT. I'm surprised that the Ram truck and van division hasn't had a similar identity crisis and been re-branded back to the original Dodge name yet.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Going back to track discussion: WTCC is making a debut at freaking NORDSCHLEIFE next year (first World Championship event there in over 30 years) so clearly there are still high profile FIA series and people behind that do not want to limit themselves to just sterile Grade 1 tracks if there is no need. And with WEC there literally is no need, we know LMP1s can handle Grade 2s and have allowance to run on all of them (and actually on lower Grades too as ALMS has showed). Now say whatever you want about WTCC but that decision is awesome and brave, and not lunatic either considering GT3s are faster and do the main 24h.

Per a 2012 FIA list I downloaded a while back, the Nordschleife is FIA Grade 3. Most U.S. and Canadian circuits are FIA Grade 2 (Exception: Montreal, the (old) Indy road circuit and CotA are Grade 1, Barber is Grade 2+1T). And that includes the street circuits at Long Beach, Edmonton, St. Pete, Toronto, Belle Isle, add Baltimore. So Grade 2 seems to be a commonly agreed to/mandated standard in North America. There are no U.S. or Canadian circuits on the list with a rating of below Grade 2.

Note that several circuits more associated with Grand Am are on the list and at Grade 2 (Daytona, Watkins Glen, New Jersey, Homestead).

The only circuit that I can think of that isn’t on the list is Kansas, but it's possible it received a FIA license since then.

[MagVanisher]

Racing in the Nürburgring Nordschleife would be great for WEC, but the only problem they would face is towing crashed prototypes and GTs when you don't have the numbers nor power to bring them back to the pits.

By the way, if Nordschleife is considered, what about Bathurst or crazy enough, Snaefell Mountain Course?

[carbon_titanium]

at race trim, lmp1 and lmp2 won't last a lap destroying suspensions

[Simmi]

And it would be incredibly dangerous.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Have you read the viper thread? Theyre in talks of having a Viper run in the wec next year. Viper has a gt3 in Europe in the Supercar series, just took victory at Nurburgring few weeks ago.

GT3 customer cars are different. And as for the GTE, on Autosport:

"Ideally we will be back (at Le Mans) and that is the goal, but we have to figure out how we do it," said Paretta, who was at Le Mans last weekend for meetings with race organiser the Automobile Club de l'Ouest.
"It would be a strategic decision because we do not sell Vipers in Europe, so there are a few things that need to align."


If they have to 'figure out' how to run at Le MANS alone - ie the biggest motor race on Earth - how exactly can they justify WEC program to their board.

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Racing in the Nürburgring Nordschleife would be great for WEC, but the only problem they would face is towing crashed prototypes and GTs when you don't have the numbers nor power to bring them back to the pits.

By the way, if Nordschleife is considered, what about Bathurst or crazy enough, Snaefell Mountain Course?

Nordschleife is not being considered, it was just being thrown as example from WTCC

And LMPs will, and should never run there, I merely suggested it for GTE

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

Per a 2012 FIA list I downloaded a while back, the Nordschleife is FIA Grade 3. Most U.S. and Canadian circuits are FIA Grade 2 (Exception: Montreal, the (old) Indy road circuit and CotA are Grade 1, Barber is Grade 2+1T). And that includes the street circuits at Long Beach, Edmonton, St. Pete, Toronto, Belle Isle, add Baltimore. So Grade 2 seems to be a commonly agreed to/mandated standard in North America. There are no U.S. or Canadian circuits on the list with a rating of below Grade 2.

Note that several circuits more associated with Grand Am are on the list and at Grade 2 (Daytona, Watkins Glen, New Jersey, Homestead).

The only circuit that I can think of that isn’t on the list is Kansas, but it's possible it received a FIA license since then.

There are few ex-ALMS tracks there that are not Grade 2 like Trois-Rivieres etc, but yes I re-checked the list and it was rather surprising to have so many of them with Grade 2 status. Places like Lime Rock having the same Grade as Sarthe is rather funny.

Anyway, luckily the US/Canadian Grade 2 tracks have survived the fate of most of the G1/G2 tracks in Europe and Asia

[TF110]

A lease program for team(s) to run the Vipers in the wec. Story is on the Viper thread and autoweek.

[Purist]

I'm not sure how the Nordschleife is really any more dangerous than the public road sections at Le Mans; those public roads probably have a more severe crown to them also. The main potential trouble spots would seem to be Flugplatz and Pflangtzgarten.

I suppose that's one thing that made the first three decades of the old WSC so great: the real punishment and conditions the machinery HAD TO endure, just as a matter of course.

[Deleted]

Sorry, what? Nordschleife equally safe/unsafe to road sections of Sarthe

The top speed might be lower at NN (apart from Döttinger Höhe) but that's because the track is less smooth and cars are slower... the state of the barriers, availability of marshals and safety teams, off camber and blindness of corners, altitude changes, runoff areas, lack of visibility - literally everything is on different level.

Also the remaining public road sections of Le Mans should all be covered by tarmac runoff next year so that will be gone down to drain forever too

But yeah as I've said many times, the thing I dislike most about this series is the boring calendar with uninspired tracks. And then next weekend you end up watching bumpy North American tracks that take no survivors if you screw it up and it feels like heaven, even if you have to endure those prehistoric tube framers


edit - maybe 25 years ago with pre-chicane, pre-hump-lowering, pre-asphalt-runoff, pre-fencing-upgrade Mulsanne I could've agreed a bit, but definitely not now

[jasonjessica09]

Originally Posted by Simmi

And it would be incredibly dangerous.

Yeah no way I can see prototypes on the Nordschliefe. GT's can handle it though.

[Purist]

Paving the verges at Le Mans is monumentally stupid. They'll use that surface as part of the track right up to the guard rails. It will be like an urban street circuit in that respect. How is that safer?!

NASCAR instituted the yellow line rules at Daytona and Talladega, so the guys just block to the yellow lines. The accidents still happen anyway, and it may be worse than before, because the guys don't lose control (like they would on the grass) until the accident has already started.

Ah, so now verges, bumps, cambered corners, elevation changes, and run-offs smaller than the state of Texas are bad? No wonder "traditional" racing has trouble attracting fans! (I'm not entirely joking here either.) I think you could argue that, with the present state of things, the Isle of Man is really more "traditional" than Le Mans is now.

Being completely serious though, elevation changes, barriers that aren't miles away, and cambered corners have been HUGE assets to the appeal of road racing, and road courses that are loved and considered to be "great". Take a look at Brands Hatch GP and Zandvoort for examples of all those. Look at old Italian GP footage to see what the Lesmos used to be like. Watch footage from the old Spa and Clermont-Ferrand. Flat tracks with flat corners and miles of run-off have NEVER been a recipe for success, staying-power, or greatness in motor racing.

Take away the third dimension, remove all the best reference points that allow the discernment of speed and agility, and move the people so far away from the activity, it's no wonder tracks with these characteristics are inherently and fundamentally unappealing. Not even so-called "great racing" can overcome all that; you've already lost the war when you've taken away the viewer's unaided ability to appreciate the spectacle for himself/herself. People adapt, and so marketing loses its potency, but when a person has been hooked by an intense, in-your-face, visceral, sensory experience, that can feed one's passion for a lifetime.

[Deleted]

Well said, sir! Thoroughly agree.

You know I imagine young people coming from playing Playstation games with wicked fantasy tracks are laughing at the modern high profile carparks used in real racing.

[Maelochs]

I sort of agree. Racing used to be going as quickly as possible within the limits of the track. Bumps, berms, guardrails ... unless they are immediate and obvious safety hazards ... they are what define the track. If drivers aren't physically limited, they will simply drive wherever they want, and on rare occasions, get penalized for it.

I don't want more crashes and I certainly don't want anything damaged or anyone hurt, but a few high curbs could really improve the racing.

Also, yes--visually these things really show the speed, the skill needed ... even Autocross sets up cones. Too many tracks now are painted parking lots, and watching a car drive wherever it wants in a parking lot is not a big thrill.

[Deleted]

Was there a single penalty issued at Le Mans for corner cutting? I don't think so as they're scared of not pleasing everybody all the time. Everybody was constantly using the Corvette corner asphalt extension with four wheels off the racing line most notably of course but start finish straight / (newly extended runoff of) esses, Tetre Rouge, Mulsanne chicanes and other parts of the Porsche Curves got violated repeately as well. Meanwhile at old school places like Indianapolis everybody behaved - or if they didn't they paid the price - because they had to. Next year with asphalt laid of everywhere there too they can forget it again and increase exploiting the limits with zero consequences (both on track and from sporting regs viewpoint). Like everywhere else where major FIA series run

[TF110]

Asphalt on the run to indianapolis from mulsanne corner. Thats not everywhere. Its a flat out part of track. Paving it will make it about as wide as the other straights. Theres still guardrails on either side and imo just makes more room for faster cars to pass on a straight instead of being held up by lower classes running side by side. Not much we can do about it.

[chernaudi]

Technically the Mulsanne Straight has mostly paved areas between the main racing surface and the guardrails, but that's because those areas are paved shoulders that are part of the actual highway. And no one wants to run there unless they have to because of all the dirt, debris, oil, and glass/hard plastic from broken windows, bits and pieces of both road and race cars and liquor bottles that end up there.

Maybe the run from Mulsanne Corner to Indy might end up the same. But as mentioned, drivers will push the limits on what's allowed or sane unless there's a "good" reason to discourage them from running somewhere.

[EricS]

Why don't they put astroturf on the other side of rumble strips to discourage going off line at LM? Seems to work to keep the F1 guys on track at their venues.

[chernaudi]

Well, it seems that garbage and crap does that down the Mulsanne...

I don't know how well astroturf would work with MotoGP and the ACO at large. There's some on the outside of the last of the Ford Chicane corners and cars--both prototypes and GT--routinely run out over it with no issues.

[Purist]

If it's firm enough to hold up under the tire/downforce loads of an LMP1, I'm not sure it's going to be a real deterrent. If it's not firm enough, well, some ugly things can happen when that stuff gets caught up in rotating parts on the cars. I'm not necessarily so trusting that that stuff is going to hold up in South America and mainland Asia anyway. Heck, DTM even had some trouble with it at Dijon in 2009.

A racetrack is NEVER "roomy enough" for racing drivers. Have you seen FIA GT at the Slovakia Ring, or CART at Cleveland? Also, the run from Mulsanne to Indianapolis is NOT straight; if it was, Rockenfeller wouldn't have had his crash along there. If the GTs use up all the road through the kinks along that stretch, even with the extra paving, things still aren't going to be "open enough". At some point, the onus HAS TO BE on the DRIVERS to drive responsibly and respectfully.

Frankly, at the top echelons, the tracks, and especially the cars, are so safe that the leading factor in terms of hazard level is driver error/carelessness. As far as I'm concerned, driving standards have been slipping, and drivers are making more thoughtless moves than ever, because it's safe enough for them to get away with it in the VAST majority of cases. And these guys and gals are NOT in line with the general population when it comes to aggressiveness, risk-taking behavior, and the sense that, while bad things do happen, they won't happen to them.