Historic cars

[SAMD]

Is it just me, or does it appear to everyone that the most interesting 'historic' race cars are the ones we watched in period. If that is the case and I suppose it is, it follows that eventually there will be very few with an interest in 60s -70s cars. Is it likely that the 60s -70s stuff will become the pre war equivalent? with very little interest and eventually only the die hards running the cars.
Will the Brabhams and Chevrons etc. become ERA's and/or Delahay's?

[Adam43]

There is something in that, but it is not a perfect rule. My favourites are before I was born.

[johngee]

Is it not true to say that the 'newer' that historic cars become, the more technically advanced they are, and they are less able to be prepared and maintained by the average enthusiast? What I'm trying to say is that, for example, the advent of electronics that need to be programmed via a laptop etc. is beyond the capabilities of many whereas 'sledgehammer' engineering is still well known and practiced by more people?

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by johngee

Is it not true to say that the 'newer' that historic cars become, the more technically advanced they are, and they are less able to be prepared and maintained by the average enthusiast? What I'm trying to say is that, for example, the advent of electronics that need to be programmed via a laptop etc. is beyond the capabilities of many whereas 'sledgehammer' engineering is still well known and practiced by more people?

So will the 90s cars (say) be the last practical race cars that can be used by Joe Bloggs or will the use of TBs and aftermarket ECUs etc. and the people that know how to set them up see the continued use of current race cars?

[Peter Mallett]

A good example is the Boss series. Not too many cars but large teams needed just to get them running.

[johngee]

A very appropriate comment Peter - look what's happened to BOSS? At the last BOSS race that I clerked (some years ago), I was talking to a couple of people (by no means amateurs!) who had acquired cars but without the electronics software and couldn't even get them started

[Simon Hadfield]

I think SAMD has a point but there are several issues. Firstly historic motorsport is also fashion led, witness the scramble to buy/restore cars when a new high profile, well funded and accessible series is started and that in the mid to late eighties there is the perfect storm of carbon fibre, one make series (either by design or by financial application), electronics and the era of the mega team. Today it continues to be teams that win not drivers - you only have to witness the vast sums spent by sponsors (and Dads!) to place their fair haired wonder in one of the top teams. So does that inspire the "kid on the bank" to want say, a Vauxhall Lotus or one of the hordes of Dallaras? Does the "romance" that is associated with our current historic era still apply through those times?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by SAMD

So will the 90s cars (say) be the last practical race cars that can be used by Joe Bloggs or will the use of TBs and aftermarket ECUs etc. and the people that know how to set them up see the continued use of current race cars?

I don't know the answer Sam but my point is, probably not? ....... but I'm sure that people on here will come in and prove that I don't know what I'm talking about!

and Simon Hadfield (whoes post has crossed with mine) will have a far more definitive or authoritative answer.

[grantp]

Interesting question SAMD.

I don't think it's all about engineering and technology. Such things can be dealt with through a small group of specialists, much as now, when required. The gap between period use (on track) and classic/historic interest seems to be about 20 to 30 years and lasts for about 20 - 30 years.

I think it's more to do with interest levels in era. Even club events in the late 70s and early 80s attracted reasonable crowds in many cases and national or international championships could see quite large numbers through the gate. Now maybe not so many.

'Typical' Spectators and competitors alike will go through a cycle of initial participatory interest (say ages 15 to around 30), have a gap of some sort for 20 or so years when they take on mortgages and family and then maybe return once those commitments are mostly dealt with. I'm generalising, but you'll get the drift. Thus the 20 to 30 year fallow period between 'in period' and subsequent 'historic' use.

There are other factors. Availability of cars, engines, parts in general and supporting technology for example. And in no small part, how the rules are written. Finding correct 'period' engines may become difficult for a number of reasons. For example the 'scrappage systems' of recent years did not allow parts to be salvaged - whole cars had to go. So no engines that could be re-worked. Add to that a move to specialised (so low volume) engines (just one parts supply example) and so lower original volumes of manufacturing and again supply may become a limiting factor, depending on the rules applied.

But I suspect that the main concern would be a lack of volume of public interest in anything other than F1 and, perhaps, BTCC.

In addition the single chassis solutions, which may have been good for racing in many ways 'in period', are perhaps not so enamouring for those with a penchant for historic involvement. One can see a continuity of sorts for Formula Ford for example with diffeent chassis manufacturers and some degree of continuing competitiveness across the years. I can't readily think of another formula that has the same longevity and evolution. Historic Formula Vauxhall anyone?

It seems to me that the bottom line is whether there are enough people around as young enthusiastsand competitiors who, later in life, will have been successful enough to be able to afford to run some sort of 'historic' or 'classic' car that they fondly remember from their youth. That seems to be the core for historic racing.

If that financially well endowed core exists and has disposable funds then the accompanying core support technologies can be made available perhaps with rules adapted to suit component availability (or lack of availability).

All of that assumes, of course, that playing with internal combustion powered devices is allowed to continue, that there are still places to do so and that other previously less broadly supported or available passtimes do not appeal more strongly to the newly enriched.

At the moment,and judging by the support vehicles that appear in paddocks as well as the prices asked for cars in the market, we seem to have a significant group of people wealthy enough to create a market for historic motorsport. Whether that will broadly continue into the next generation is not so easy to predict. By that I mean whether the money will be around to support both the desire and the technologies required and whether in fact there will be enough people with the desire to go racing to make it all work.

Things will no doubt find their own level, wherever it may be.

If the 90s cars (and not just exotic formulas from that era) start to appear in volume in dedicated categories and keep going for 2 or 3 years then we might assume that things will continue for at least another decade or so.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by johngee

A very appropriate comment Peter - look what's happened to BOSS? At the last BOSS race that I clerked (some years ago), I was talking to a couple of people (by no means amateurs!) who had acquired cars but without the electronics software and couldn't even get them started

One way around that is, in part, to almost totally re-engineer the car using stuff that is supported (at least to some extent).

How that fits with the usual current concepts of historic rules is something else.

[gt917]

Originally Posted by grantp

One way around that is, in part, to almost totally re-engineer the car using stuff that is supported (at least to some extent).

How that fits with the usual current concepts of historic rules is something else.

Ah, replicas ..............................................

OK, i know, time for me to go ?

[grantp]

Originally Posted by gt917

Ah, replicas ..............................................

OK, i know, time for me to go ?

In the case of BOSS and whatever the parallel options are I fear it's not even that simple.

As I understand it the enforced changes to be able to turn a wheel are such that one might consider many of the cars, epecially the F1 related chassis, to be little more than silhouettes for practical purposes.

Now if that's what it takes to see cars of the era making similar sounds and blasting around a track in a relatively competitive way then so be it, for my money. It's nowhere near as basic an engineering challenge as having some form of DFV kit car (tongue firmly in cheek) from the 70s to play with.

Manufacturer involvement, especially when they moved into dedicated racing mode as opposed to adapted (broad sense) road car sourced products, changed the rules for the future history.

IMO.

[SAMD]

Some interesting comments here. Thank you Grant for your input, you have a fine knack of putting into words what we (assumptions!) are thinking. What you say makes sense, although it generalises quite a bit. But then it would be wrong to be more specific. Life eh!
Ah well never mind all that, I have just bought a grass collector for an Iseki lawnmower! as one does! All I need now is the lawnmower to match!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by SAMD

Some interesting comments here. Thank you Grant for your input, you have a fine knack of putting into words what we (assumptions!) are thinking. What you say makes sense, although it generalises quite a bit. But then it would be wrong to be more specific. Life eh!
Ah well never mind all that, I have just bought a grass collector for an Iseki lawnmower! as one does! All I need now is the lawnmower to match!

Kind words, thank you.

I think one has to generalise for more recent eras.

Waaaaayyyy back in the day cars would have a racing life of several years - maybe decades - and still be competitive (at times, in the right hands etc., etc.) It's much the same in certain classes of iastoric Racing today - ERAs regularly being competitive and beating much later designs for example. Not all down to the car of course. But somewhere around the 60s the active lifespan of a racing car changed in ways that are more fundamental (or seem to me to be more fundamental) than previously.

Chassis construction, build materials, fuels, lubricants and tyres started to take on greater influences, then each team taking on bespoke engine and making their own gearboxes and electronics and so on in the world of F1 and Sports cars. Some of that philosophy filtered down through the lesser know formulas as well either to be adopted if money was available for the development work or rejected in favour of 'one make' solutions for reasons of cost consciousness.

There are so many things to consider that only generaisation can start to form opinions (I think)

In days past the dynamics of keeping historic cars running at hobbyist level was doable because the skills require were not too specific and parts were usually available at affordable prices being often components of road cars now scrapped or going obsolete.

At some point the parts become very rare and the 'investment' syndrome comes to the fore leding to increasing prices.

In the carbon fibre era the dynamics of keeping older stuff operational have changed and the 'between modern and historic' age is probably much less accessible to the average punter with a garage a few quid to spend.

Once firmly into the modern age I suspect the game changes again - but we may not really know how succesfyul adaptation has been for about 10 years.

All IMHO of course.

[MartinSmith]

Interesting thread....but I pose a question....where does "Historic" start then?

Some will say that a 1989 car is not historic, or indeed a 1991 car isnt, but it is still 21 years old.....so, whats the general consesus on when "current" ends and historics start?

the reason for my question is two fold, one I am interetsed to get peoples thoughts but also, I have long been a believer that the historic line changes every year as such (History is actually only yesterday surely...or even sooner in some respects) so I believe that a year 2000 car is effectively historic if the model has now ceased or had a facelift

[Al Weyman]

Anything pre M3 lol!

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Anything pre M3 lol!

[zefarelly]

I thought 'classic' was generally considered to be 25 years old ?

Al's classic, but he's over 25 now.

[zefarelly]

I read this, and thought, it could be referring exclusively for popular production cars of the 1960-66 period and their development in the last ten years . . . .

Originally Posted by grantp

I think one has to generalise for more recent eras.

Chassis construction, build materials, fuels, lubricants and tyres started to take on greater influences, then each team taking on bespoke engine and making their own gearboxes and electronics and so on in the world of F1 and Sports cars. Some of that philosophy filtered down through the lesser know formulas as well either to be adopted if money was available for the development work or rejected in favour of 'one make' solutions for reasons of cost consciousness.

There are so many things to consider that only generaisation can start to form opinions (I think)

In days past the dynamics of keeping historic cars running at hobbyist level was doable because the skills require were not too specific and parts were usually available at affordable prices being often components of road cars now scrapped or going obsolete.

At some point the parts become very rare and the 'investment' syndrome comes to the fore leding to increasing prices.

In the carbon fibre era the dynamics of keeping older stuff operational have changed and the 'between modern and historic' age is probably much less accessible to the average punter with a garage a few quid to spend.

Once firmly into the modern age I suspect the game changes again - but we may not really know how succesfyul adaptation has been for about 10 years.

All IMHO of course.

[grantp]

A small tale that's may be slightly marginally on topic.

A keen car/classic car buff I am acquainted with, old school it's fair to say, told me a couple of days ago about a relatively new Ford Focus shopping trolley that arrived at the repair shop and garage owned by a friend of his (also a classic car enthusiast) with 35k miles on the clock and a nasty noise coming from the engine.

They took the head off and discovered a piston crown had become detached from the main body. Unusual at that mileage one would have thought. Recoverable though with a bit of work, so they enquired about getting a replacement piston.

No chance. They are not available (apparently) so a new engine (presumably short block complete but maybe head as well in the circumstances) is required.

Now one could observe that modern engines are built to far closer tolerances than engines used to be and that they now come balanced with matched pistons and whatever to provide better performance and service life with lower warranty claims for extended warranty periods(maybe), quieter operation and to match all of the emission control and CO2 output regulations/taxes/ w.h.y.

Thus the concept of "on the fly" repair using unmatched parts may be best avoided no matter what the consequences. Or maybe it's more to do with controlling the repair market and making profit? I'm sure an insider could fully inform us on that point.

But the thing is if the parts are not on general release and if the same policies apply for all manufacturers for all products it occurs to me that the opportunity to keep the cars running for any purpose using 'original parts' may be severely limited at a much earlier stage in a car's potential life than has been the case in the past.

Simplistically does this mean that current strict rules (whether applied or not being a different discussion) about eligibility either make the concept of classic/historic motor sport impractical on its current scale or become moot if people as permitted to keep the cars going by any means possible?

(I am assuming that Historic Motor sport, indeed all motorsport, is not constrained to oblivion by other regulations in the near to medium future and that there will be enough people interested in taking part to make it viable in some way across a range of budgets.)

[GORDON STREETER]

Unfortunately Grant that's the way things are going. The amount of good usable cars that are being scrapped because of what used to be simple repairs is happening all the time.
Unless the customer can do the repairs themselves or has a money tree down the garden it will happen more.
Most cars (especially upmarket ones with all the gizmo's) need specialist to work on them, have you tried to work on an up to date engine ? gone are those days unfortunately. You can't just bung a head gasket on in half an hour or change a cam belt on a lot of cars in these days of non fixed pulley wheels without all the tools.
Many try and then the phone rings on a Monday morning with " my mate and I did so and so at the weekend and it wont start !"
It normally cost them twice as much in the end

[zefarelly]

The only thing I do to my Subaru is put fuel and 710 in it, and check the tyres if they don't pass the kick test.

Its far easier to buy aftermarked tuning goodies for modern engines, although a lot of that is Ting-Tong confectionary. .thats creepng onto the historic market also.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Its far easier to buy aftermarked tuning goodies for modern engines, although a lot of that is Ting-Tong confectionary..

Like "chips n zorst pipes"

[Lancsbreaker]

Having read Grant's tale I've just checked my Fiat group parts catalogue....even for the Alfa Giulietta, launched only last year and with new engines, you can purchase individual piston + rings - although in a slightly bewildering range of sizes/grades, and at prices ranging from £150 per piston - better than £6.5K+ for a full engine I suppose . Hmm - I remember my Dad paying 15/- per bore for a man to come and rebore our Standard Flying 12 in the back yard, and I think the pistons were another £3/10/- .............However that would have been in the late 50s or early 60s I guess!


Mind you as Gordon says, I have a tenmdency on the modern Alfas to come over all baffled when contemplating the under-bonnet black-magickery . Even on the 16v Twin-sparks that are fairly old technology now - as fitted in 145s and 155s for 17 years or so, so nearly historic, you need a variety of camlocks etc to do a belt change, and its a few hours (and £200+) of a job....

Think I'll stick to this year's plan of a GTV6 or a 75 - even better - its got a chain-drive for the cams!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Having read Grant's tale I've just checked my Fiat group parts catalogue....even for the Alfa Giulietta, launched only last year and with new engines, you can purchase individual piston + rings - although in a slightly bewildering range of sizes/grades, and at prices ranging from £150 per piston - better than £6.5K+ for a full engine I suppose . Hmm - I remember my Dad paying 15/- per bore for a man to come and rebore our Standard Flying 12 in the back yard, and I think the pistons were another £3/10/- .............However that would have been in the late 50s or early 60s I guess!


Mind you as Gordon says, I have a tenmdency on the modern Alfas to come over all baffled when contemplating the under-bonnet black-magickery . Even on the 16v Twin-sparks that are fairly old technology now - as fitted in 145s and 155s for 17 years or so, so nearly historic, you need a variety of camlocks etc to do a belt change, and its a few hours (and £200+) of a job....

Think I'll stick to this year's plan of a GTV6 or a 75 - even better - its got a chain-drive for the cams!

Right, so that means that in 20 years from now Historic Racing Saloon fields will lack Fords and be full of Alfas. Sounds OK to me ...