[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Asa

They may not meet each other in every round in my suggestion, but they do meet 3 or 4 times a year at the Slams. You want the big teams to meet every race at WEC and ONLY at WEC, soon enough they will decide that losing all the time is not so much fun and be force to quit by the bean counters.

You get your one or two years of Toyota, Audi, Peugeot, Aston Martin etc racing against each other regularly. Then they will leave because they have nothing to show. It has happened so many times in sportscar history.

Smaller concurrent events allow them to win and tell the bean counters that they are not losers. They just won this race and next year they will win Le Mans or whatever Slam. Or the year after.

This does not even make sense to me. Winning is only part of the equation. Who you beat is equally as important. I don't think boards of directors are going to get too excited about a major investment beating Dyson and Autocon at the Oklahoma Grand Prix. Also, the boards won't be impressed if something happened where a team showed up and beat tough competitors only to lose the championship to someone who did a bunch of ALMS and/or LMS races against scrub competition. Also, sometimes the ALMS allows for different restrictors and such. You could see teams competing for the same championship with different rules.

Anyway, the WEC schedule is essentially set by the big auto companies participating in it. If not, there would not be talks about multiple races in China/India and a race in South America. They know how many races they want to race in and where they want to race at. The schedule will reflect that.

In American terms, your idea is a lot more like NCAA Division I-A college football with the bowls. It's not exactly the same, but it is confusing and leads to questionable results. The fans hate it and want to see a more traditional championship format.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Asa

You don't get that in sportscar racing? Recession hits every now and then it is a fact of life. Every time a recession hit, the bean counters will come along and tell the race team boss: you are downsized because you are a loser.

Acura & 2009 is a pretty good example. And it highlights the problem in your system. They won all other races except the ones Audi & Peugeot "cherry picked". Acura certainly wasn't "a loser" but we know what was the board's verdict on those meaningless wins.

You get your one or two years of Toyota, Audi, Peugeot, Aston Martin etc racing against each other regularly. Then they will leave because they have nothing to show. It has happened so many times in sportscar history.

Last time this happened (1999) there was no common championship and not fully operational regional championships either. The WEC needs to become so important that it is hard to leave.

Smaller concurrent events allow them to win and tell the bean counters that they are not losers. They just won this race and next year they will win Le Mans or whatever Slam. Or the year after.

Le Mans is pretty well known but ALMS, LMS and ILMC has very limited marketing appeal (WEC is supposed to change this) let alone single races that no one has heard about.

[Tim the Grey]

On Sunday I was admiring a signed Silk Cut Jag poster from 1987.
I wasn't paying a LOT of attention, but I seem to recall about 10 or 12 rounds, including a race in Australia?

I'm sure someone here can enlighten me.

Point being, howcome a World Sportscar Title back then could justify all those races, yet now we have squabbles over 5 or 6 rounds?

Money, and Hospitality. Audi and Peugeot didn't have a tent with champagne on tap for invited guests, but massive semi permanent buildings, blocking spectator viewing of certain parts of the track... How much does something like that cost to run, never mind the race team? This is getting unreal. You want F1 hospitality, go to F1! Yes, they are important players, but it seems to ignore the thousands of people who aren't there just to be seen. Perhaps if they had something you could go into, and look/see? Give something back to the spectators?

Just a thought...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

On Sunday I was admiring a signed Silk Cut Jag poster from 1987.

I wasn't paying a LOT of attention, but I seem to recall about 10 or 12 rounds, including a race in Australia?

All the info is here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Wo...p_season#Races

[deggis]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...henry-biabaud/

Not much new info, though...

[Mike_Wooshy]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

On Sunday I was admiring a signed Silk Cut Jag poster from 1987.
I wasn't paying a LOT of attention, but I seem to recall about 10 or 12 rounds, including a race in Australia?

I'm sure someone here can enlighten me.

Point being, howcome a World Sportscar Title back then could justify all those races, yet now we have squabbles over 5 or 6 rounds?

Money, and Hospitality. Audi and Peugeot didn't have a tent with champagne on tap for invited guests, but massive semi permanent buildings, blocking spectator viewing of certain parts of the track... How much does something like that cost to run, never mind the race team? This is getting unreal. You want F1 hospitality, go to F1! Yes, they are important players, but it seems to ignore the thousands of people who aren't there just to be seen. Perhaps if they had something you could go into, and look/see? Give something back to the spectators?

Just a thought...

1988 is the season your after at Sandown. see here.

[JAG]

Back then the WSC was effectively a European championship, the WEC will be going to the four corners of the world, with much more effort from organisors and participants put into the media and PR side.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Point being, howcome a World Sportscar Title back then could justify all those races, yet now we have squabbles over 5 or 6 rounds?

Things are quite different now than in the past. There will be four classes this time around. Two of those are amateur classes and GTE-Pro is composed mainly of privateer teams as well. Obviously, with so many privateer teams, I think you can't ship people around the globe. Races have to be picked meaningfully. Also, I think Audi and Peugeot are happy with 7 races in strategic markets.

I do wonder who is going to pay the shipping bills for the WEC. Are the promoters paying for some/all of the bills to have teams ship their stuff? Or are the teams footing the bill completely?

[cmk]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Money, and Hospitality. Audi and Peugeot didn't have a tent with champagne on tap for invited guests, but massive semi permanent buildings, blocking spectator viewing of certain parts of the track... How much does something like that cost to run, never mind the race team? This is getting unreal. You want F1 hospitality, go to F1! Yes, they are important players, but it seems to ignore the thousands of people who aren't there just to be seen. Perhaps if they had something you could go into, and look/see? Give something back to the spectators?

Just a thought...

I'm pretty sure that if they give something back to the spectators, it's the cars on track? Certainly it would be nice to see some sort of fan-zone setup, but it will only make sense to them if it earns rather than loses money.

The use of 'F1 hospitality', whatever that means, seems to be their prerogative. The continuing presence of the suites suggests it is a fiscally viable exercise for them. It doesn't make sense to cost-cap teams' hospitality setups, and surely they are entitled to invest where they want without being told they need to go to another series to have such a posh getup. If the entertainment in the suites earns money, money puts cars on track, and cars on track gives us an unbelievably close Le Mans like 2011, then long live the suites!

[Speed-King]

Obviously, with so many privateer teams, I think you can't ship people around the globe.

It's not like there were any less privateer teams in the 80s.... at times a few more factory teams, but even that pretty much towards the end of the decade with the early 80s being mostly Porsche vs Lancia and later Jaguar if memory serves me right.

[NaBUru38]

The problem with Asa's World Tour is that manufacturers want to beat other manufacturers. Ferrari wants to beat Porsche, Chevrolet, Aston Martin and Nissan. Facing just one or two rivals or small privateers is meaningless.

I believe that a proper world championship needs strong continental championships. Since most races are in Europe, the best way to support the Euro Le Mans Series is to limit European races to 3, so teams and sponsors who can't / don't want to leave Europe stick to the European championship. The American Le Mans Series is facing issues apart from manufacturer involvement. This won't change much to them, because works teams don't need to go to North America more than three times.

[Speed-King]

I believe that a proper world championship needs strong continental championships.

Yes, but not necessarily run to the same rules as the WC.

This might have been way back, even a little before I was born, but in the 70s and early 80s, the World Sportscar Championship would often recruit IMSA or Trans-Am as a supporting cast for their American rounds, and I think the same could be in the event of a complete failure of ALMS be done today.

To a certain degree WRC is still doing that today, allowing those weird little 1liter-cars into Rallye Japan.

Why not simply race with Brasilian GT3 at Interlagos? Or Super Taikyu somewhere in Japan? It doesn't really take a "XYZ Le Mans Series" to fill the grids of the World Championship, within reason any other race car will do just as well. Because, let's face it, 90% of the grid will be viewed as field fillers and rolling chicanes for the juggernauts at the top of the field by most of the specators and the media, if they are built to ACO-rules or not.

[Speed-King]

delete

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by cmk

I'm pretty sure that if they give something back to the spectators, it's the cars on track? Certainly it would be nice to see some sort of fan-zone setup, but it will only make sense to them if it earns rather than loses money.

The use of 'F1 hospitality', whatever that means, seems to be their prerogative. The continuing presence of the suites suggests it is a fiscally viable exercise for them. It doesn't make sense to cost-cap teams' hospitality setups, and surely they are entitled to invest where they want without being told they need to go to another series to have such a posh getup. If the entertainment in the suites earns money, money puts cars on track, and cars on track gives us an unbelievably close Le Mans like 2011, then long live the suites!

The blocking of spectators seeing the track was only opposite the Ford chicane in the hospitality area that was blocked by the smaller teams' tents (Oreca etc) nevermind the Audi monsters, and on the inside of the Dunlop chicane from what I saw. Doesn't really ruin much of the experience and if it helps guarantee the big teams coming who are we to complain?

[Tim the Grey]

I object, if we have a load of folks who are ONLY there to be seen to be there, drink a little, eat something, and 'network' a lot.
Queen's Club tennis Sunday was rained off. It was remarked upon by most of the Press, that when they sold tickets for the re-scheduled Monday, the seats were ACTUALLY filled... By fans. Apparently most seats are usually Corporate Sponsor sales, and no one uses them???
By all means have Hospitality. But does it HAVE to be so massive, and does it HAVE to exclude fans from a section of track? They can set these things back a little, and they still have their party, but we can get to see, too.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by deggis

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...henry-biabaud/

Not much new info, though...

The most interesting aspect to me is talk of forming commercial and media partners, it sounds obvious, but sportscar racing has become heavily dependent on manufactuers and wealthy individuals, you don't see too many privateers coming in with major, non automotive, sponsors.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Why not simply race with Brasilian GT3 at Interlagos? Or Super Taikyu somewhere in Japan? It doesn't really take a "XYZ Le Mans Series" to fill the grids of the World Championship, within reason any other race car will do just as well. Because, let's face it, 90% of the grid will be viewed as field fillers and rolling chicanes for the juggernauts at the top of the field by most of the specators and the media, if they are built to ACO-rules or not.

This is the same idea I had a couple of months ago

The entry list for the ILMC has numbered around the high-20s all year, so you need to keep the grid nice and full somehow

My concept of a world championship would have them running Sebring 12 Hours, Bathurst 12 hours, Monza 1000km, Spa 1000km, Le Mans 24 Hours, Nurburgring 1000km, Silverstone 1000km, Petit Le Mans, Fuji 1000km, Mil Milhas (at Interlagos).

At the American rounds the ALMS would also race with their car numbers suffixed with an A.

At the European rounds the LMS would also race with their car numbers having an E after them.

For Bathurst you would have Australian GT cars with A after their numbers, Fuji would have Super Taikyu GT3 cars running with a J and Interlagos would have Brasilian GT cars running with a B.

[TF110]

Anyone else think since this is basically an FIA thing, they'll use newer FIA tracks? Circuit of the Americas? India? Korea? (Attract Hyundai)

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

Anyone else think since this is basically an FIA thing, they'll use newer FIA tracks? Circuit of the Americas? India? Korea? (Attract Hyundai)

It's basically a ACO thing.
It only bears the FIA name

[TF110]

Using the FIA just in name then? I don't see that happening. WORLD being the key part in my thinking. Maybe not every FIA track, but why not the new ones that're in parts of the world they intend to run?

[deggis]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...ec-involvement

Btw:

With the WEC schedule set to be confirmed in September by the FIA World Motor Sport Council

[KA]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Yes, but not necessarily run to the same rules as the WC.

This might have been way back, even a little before I was born, but in the 70s and early 80s, the World Sportscar Championship would often recruit IMSA or Trans-Am as a supporting cast for their American rounds, and I think the same could be in the event of a complete failure of ALMS be done today.

To a certain degree WRC is still doing that today, allowing those weird little 1liter-cars into Rallye Japan.

Why not simply race with Brasilian GT3 at Interlagos? Or Super Taikyu somewhere in Japan? It doesn't really take a "XYZ Le Mans Series" to fill the grids of the World Championship, within reason any other race car will do just as well. Because, let's face it, 90% of the grid will be viewed as field fillers and rolling chicanes for the juggernauts at the top of the field by most of the specators and the media, if they are built to ACO-rules or not.

Thinking back to when I started watching sportscars 1984/5-ish, yes, that's pretty much what happened- apart from the World Championship regulars, the 'flyaway' races in Canada, South Africa, Japan usually included varying amounts of local cars bolstering the grid- anything from local touring cars or a mix of local-regs prototypes and GTs, to IMSA cars (mostly GT) in Canada...
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...985-08-11.html ..or the local Group C field in Japan.

These either ran by adding the local classes onto the entry, adding a single 'catch-all' class for local cars, or simply as part of the regular class structure (Don't forget that Group C always included IMSA classes- Mazda ran their 'Group C' entries to IMSA regs for a while, and there were often American IMSA entries at Le Mans- Bob Tullius' Group 44 Jaguars probably the best-known)

Even when the FIA made participation in the full season mandatory for teams in the World Championship around 1989/90, some of the smaller privateer teams got round this for the Japanese trip by leasing their entry slots out to local Group C teams who IIRC appeared under the name of the regular team on the entry list.

To some extent it's not that far away from what happens currently, with the ALMS regulars making up a proportion of the entry at Sebring and PLM, the LMS field making up about half the grid for some of the Euro races, and some local GT3 cars in China

[Fogelhund]

Interesting article in DSC about the WEC. Malcolm seems to believe that the North American event will not be at a track the ALMS currently visits, nor will it actually be an ALMS event.

Homestead? Texas?

Daytona 24?

Sometimes it defies logic as to what the ACO might be thinking, assuming Malcolm has been correctly informed, which he usually is.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Interesting article in DSC about the WEC. Malcolm seems to believe that the North American event will not be at a track the ALMS currently visits, nor will it actually be an ALMS event.

Homestead? Texas?

Daytona 24?

Sometimes it defies logic as to what the ACO might be thinking, assuming Malcolm has been correctly informed, which he usually is.

If thats the case I would say Texas would be obvious choice. The FIA would probably be keen to run a big race like this ahead of the GP to check out the track for F1 girls

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Interesting article in DSC about the WEC. Malcolm seems to believe that the North American event will not be at a track the ALMS currently visits, nor will it actually be an ALMS event.

Homestead? Texas?

Daytona 24?

Sometimes it defies logic as to what the ACO might be thinking, assuming Malcolm has been correctly informed, which he usually is.

Is it being over optimistic to see this as being reasonably good news for sportscar racing in the US? Sebring's got undeniable form as a Le Mans warm up - the old truism of half as long and twice as hard generally bearing fruit, and PLM has built a profile all of its own - so one could see these races still attracting some level of out of town support, and critically stand as blue ribband events for season long ALMS competitors.

To this we'd add a WEC round, giving us three front line ACO rules rounds in the US - not - I would argue an overly bad thing.

That said, Malcolm's article made a lot of good points - sorting backing, travel packages, and what would be put in place for teams needs to be sorted soon, and they do need to get the calendar nailed as soon as possible. Manufacturers are important, but we need quality across the rest of the grid - after all, when talking about the WEC everyone name checks classic seasons from the 1980s, nobody, so far, has expressed enthusiasm for going back to 1992.