The Saleen argument

[Mags]

We need more Saleens. I adore Saleens. Speaking Of... anyone heard if Mowlem has a ride anywhere?

[PascaLM]

No Saleen : a scandal.

[Mags]

I can't believe it. THAT is a crying shame. One just won in the FIA GT!!

[19dodge]

where were you guys back in march? thats all i was thinking.. no saleens at le mans.. i was so upset. i am over it now.. but, if konrad kept his reserve entry, he would have been in the race.. a shame..

[Mags]

I was in Sebring.. taking pictures of the Saleen!!

[19dodge]

well, that was the Acemco saleen. I am talking about the team that has been with them since the start: Konrad. They are now even building their own chassis, and making their own parts..

[19dodge]

dont get me wrong, i love all the saleen teams.. its just I like Konrad the most, since they have had the most sucess and have stuck with it for 4 years now..

[SALEEN S7R]

19dodge, that isnt entirley correct. RML were with Saleen from the beginning, Konrad came along a little bit later if Im not mistaken.

[19dodge]

RML built the saleens. They ran in the ELMS + Le Mans in 2001, then quit. now they are back in 2004. Konrad was there from the begining at Sebring 2001. 3rd race ever for the saleen, and they win..

[SALEEN S7R]

Yes but all I was trying to say is that RML was working on the cars in their workshops long before Konrad got hold of their machinery If im not mistaken. Unless im very much mistaken the orginal Konrad Saleens were produced by RML.

[19dodge]

correct.. however Konrad was the first team to win with it. the only 2 other outings before Sebring in 2001 was Laguna Seca in 2000 (run by the factory) and Daytona 2001 (Gentalozzi's team).

Konrad also had the factory drivers (Terry Borcheller and Ollie Gavin) And Konrad helped run the factory team at LM in 2001

RML were working on them , but they didnt have a very good race programme. In the ELMS, there was no competition. At Le Mans, they were doing very well, until they lost the engine..

[19dodge]

and what i was saying from the begining of this "issue" was that Konrad has been around a lot more than Acemco. Acemco only has run one race so far (with the Saleen)

[SALEEN S7R]

In the ELMS RML had no competiton? Funny that I could have sworn Konrad were in the series too, with a Saleen S7R and a Porsche 911 GT2, and who came out on top between the RML and Konrad battle? RML.

[SALEEN S7R]

In fact, the RML Saleen trounced the Konrad Saleen everywhere in the 2001 ELMS, barring Jarama. See for yourself. http://www.motorsport.com/news/series.asp?S=ELMS&Y=2001

[19dodge]

yes, thats correct, since Konrad had pay drivers (Walter Brun and Toni Seiler).. RML had Bruno Lambert and Ian McKellar. But, where was RML in 2002 and 2003? if you say Le Mans, that is incorrect, since Graham Nash entered the car, they only linked up with a few RML engineers.. (and in 2002 they used the RML name since it had an auto entry)

[19dodge]

my point is that Konrad has been around since the begining, unlike Graham Nash , Acemco and DDO. It just seems like nobody gives Konrad respect here. they only care about "the other" saleens.. And then when Konrad wins, they pay attention..

[SALEEN S7R]

Maybe the reason as to why most people here take more notice of RML and GNM winning is because the vast majority of posters here is British???? Just a wild stab in the dark there lol. If this were a prodiminantly German website Im sure Konrad would get mentioned a hell of a lot more, but this is as I say mainly a British website, sure its international I know that, but if any one country has the most members here its bound to be the UK.

But what ur saying is basically Franz is getting a raw deal? Personally I dont agree with that, for whatever reasons up until recently the Konrad car hasnt been performing very well (in FIA GT), and now it is. Good for them, just a shame it took them so long to get the cars running well in FIA GT. If Konrad feels he is being treated unfairly or isnt getting enough "respect" Im sure he will leave.

Oh, and yes Im aware Konrad often had pay to drive drivers, barring of course Jarama when Oliver Gavin drove for the team and they scored their only win of the series, but look at the RML line up, Bruno Lambert is not a professional sportscar driver, and neither is Chris Goodwin or Iain Mckellar JNR (hes good but I dont think hes a pro). So really just because Konrad had pay drivers in their car isnt a excuse for not winning, because RML also had pay drivers.

[JAG]

For the last few years, Konrad has been out on his own running the Saleens, with restrictions and little development from the factory.

BTW Cris Goodwin and Mckellar Jr are proffessional driveras.

[SALEEN S7R]

Really JAG? Who does Chris Goodwin drive for on a regular basis then? And who does Iain Mckellar JNR drive for professionally too? Sure Mckellar has LMP and GTS experince but I think hes still a gentleman driver, even if he isnt, which I think he is, u have to admit hed defintly be one of the top professional drivers would he, ie Guonon, Kristensen, Herbert, Gavin, Enge, Massen etc.

[JAG]

They are solid professional driver, who make a living from the sport. Goodwin does alot of work for Mclaren.

They can't all be as good a Kristensen and Enge, but they will do a good job.


http://www.redshoes-racing.com/Drivers/showcv.php?id=48

[SALEEN S7R]

Sorry Jag, who did u say they are currently employeed by? And again, who are both of these "solid drivers" driving for at LM this year? Unless ive missed their names on this years LM entry list, which I dont think I have. I find it very strange that 2 "solid drivers" have not found a place in any of the cars.

JAG - I could name 100 current sportscar drivers who IMO are of a better quality than Goodwin and Mckellar, and their CV's would back that up too. Sure, Mckellar and Goodwin arent bad, very good in fact, for gentleman drivers.

[JAG]

Believe me Mclaren would not employ a 'gentleman driver' to shake down there F1 cars etc.

As for Mckellar Jr he is a good up and coming proffessional who's looking to break into Nascar, via Ascar, and develop his sportscar career. A professional driver does not always need to be competing, they can do development work for manufactuers, take part in driving schools etc.

Goodwin in the F1 GTR in 1997 showed a clean pair of heels to many drivers in better funded cars.

[SALEEN S7R]

You make Valid points JAG. But I beleive I do also, im going to quit posting on this thread now I think, Ive made my views perfectly clear and so have u, lets just agree to disagree. Again.

[Patrick B]

This was posted on the GARRA Fans site a while back-

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...df/04-1272.pdf

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
[Docket No. NHTSA 2001?9362; Notice 3]
Saleen, Inc.; Grant of Application for Renewal of Temporary Exemption
From Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 208 This notice grants the application by Saleen, Inc., of Irvine, California (??Saleen??), for a renewal of a temporary exemption for its S7 passenger car from the requirements of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 208,
Occupant Crash Protection. In accordance with 49 U.S.C. 30113(b)(3)(B)(i), the basis of the request was that compliance would cause substantial economic hardship to a manufacturer that has made a good faith effort to comply with the standard.

1
On April 16, 2003, Saleen petitioned to renew this exemption for an additional 3 years. In accordance with 49 CFR 555.8(e), the previous exemption has remained in effect until the publication of this notice, because the application for renewal was filed more than 60 days prior to expiration of the exemption. Petitioner began developing the S7 in February of 2000. Originally, Saleen expected to deliver the S7 vehicles to customers in the summer of 2001. However, product development and regulatory issues delayed production until March 6, 2003, when Saleen received Certificates of Conformity for the 2003 model year from the Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board. Between March 6, 2003, and the date of
the petition, Saleen sold eight S7s. Petitioner hopes to sell a total of 36 S7s by the end of 2003. In contrast, Saleen originally projected selling 112 S7s by the end of 2003.

2
Petitioner?s other line of business consists of altering Ford Mustang
vehicles. However, the company has ??sustained a major slowdown?? in the sales of these vehicles, which it attributes ??to the downturn in the U.S. economy.?? The company has produced only 79 ??Saleen Mustangs?? as of June 11, 2003, compared with 327 in the comparable period in 2002. The company currently maintains a payroll of 96 people. Previously, Saleen employed 122 individuals, but was forced to downsize in an effort to complete development of the S7. Why Saleen Needs a Renewal of a Temporary Exemption In the original petition, Saleen estimated that it needed 20 months and approximately $3,000,000 to bring the S7 into compliance with Standard No. 208.

3
In the absence of sales until March of 2003, Saleen did not generate the necessary funds to bring the S7 into compliance as scheduled. According to the petitioner: ??development delays almost completely exhausted all of our economic resources necessary to stay in business, let alone the development of air bags.?? In the meantime, NHTSA has implemented new regulations pertaining to advanced air bags (49 CFR
571.208; S14). Petitioner has now asked for a three-year extension of its original two-year exemption in order to generate funds that would allow it to fully comply with the new, advanced air bag requirements of Standard No. 208. Petitioner now estimates, based on projected sales, that it will be financially able to begin developing advanced air bags by July 2004. Saleen anticipates that the project will take 24 months and cost an estimated $3,800,000. Petitioner expects full compliance with the requirements of Standard No. 208 by September 1, 2006.


5
In the spring of 2003, Saleen was finally able to begin recouping its losses by delivering the first eight S7 vehicles to customers. If this petition is denied, Saleen will have to immediately cease production and sales of the S7. Petitioner estimates that denial of the petition would decrease the earnings before taxes from $2,707,000 to $7,000. Further, denial of the petition would cast serious doubt over the long-term financial viability of the company, and would likely result in downsizing of the current workforce.

In order to comply with the requirements of Standard No. 208,
petitioner would have to redesign the following equipment: (1) Steering
wheel; (2) Steering column; (3) Dash panel (4) Gauge pod; (5) Seats and seat brackets; (6) Center console; (7) Interior trim panels; and (8) Wiring harness. Petitioner expects to rely on the continuous sales of S7 vehicles in order to fund a redesign of the above components. As previously stated, sales of the vehicle were delayed until March of 2003. As a result, petitioner did not have the resources necessary to bring the S7 in compliance with the non-advanced air bag requirements of Standard No. 208.

6

Petitioner notes that there are no available alternative means of compliance.

The Agency?s Findings
Saleen is typical of small volume manufacturers who have received temporary exemptions in the past on hardship grounds. With limited resources, petitioner developed a high-priced automobile for a specialty market. Unfortunately, Saleen was unable to take advantage of the original exemption, granted on June 21, 2001, due to regulatory and production delays. Petitioner had anticipated using the profits it derived from sales of S7 automobiles to bring the vehicle into compliance by July 30, 2003. Because the sales did not commence until March of 2003, petitioner was unable to do so. Accordingly, Saleen has asked for additional time to bring the S7 into compliance with Standard No. 208. If the petition is denied, the sale of S7 automobiles will cease immediately and the petitioner will be unable to derive financial resources necessary to bring the S7 into compliance with Standard No. 208. Saleen?s financial statements show a net loss for the previous three fiscal years. Thus, it appears the petitioner does not have immediate resources available to bring the vehicle into compliance with Standard No. 208. Additionally, Saleen will be required to meet the new, advanced air bag requirements of Standard No. 208 once the exemption expires. In evaluating Saleen?s current situation, the agency finds that to require immediate compliance with Standard No. 208 would cause petitioner substantial economic hardship.

7
In consideration of the foregoing, it is hereby found that compliance with the requirements of Standard No. 208 would cause substantial economic hardship to a manufacturer that has tried in good faith to comply with the standard. It is further found that the granting of an exemption would be in the public interest and consistent with the objectives of traffic safety. In accordance with 49 U.S.C. 30113(b)(3)(B)(i), NHTSA Temporary Exemption No. 2001?6, exempting Saleen S7 from the requirements of 49 CFR 571.208; Standard No. 208, Occupant Crash Protection, is hereby extended until September 1, 2006.(49 U.S.C. 30113; delegation of authority at 49 CFR 1.50 and 501.8)


It could be a bleek future for the S7's...

[19dodge]

Chris Goodwin is a very good driver IMO. McKellar as well. they are not gentlemen drivers!! Pay drivers/gentlemen drivers are people like Miguel Ramos, Milka Duno(well it would be Woman driver lol), Mike Newton, etc

having 2 pro drivers in one car always makes a diffrence.. look how well Konrad is running now with Uwe Alzen and Michael Bartels. Konrad suffered in 2002 in the ALMS because of the restrictions.. (ballast and restrictor) This year is diffrent because Konrad now has the funds to develop and manufacture parts of the car. He hopes to sell 3-4 of his Chassis's over the winter. They will be building them off of the S7 road chassis's. Someone did a great interview with Terry Borcheller a while back, and Terry explained Franz very well. Franz cares about racing, making sure the equipment is good, etc. He doesnt care about the other "eye candy" stuff. For instance, Konrad's website was not updated since March of 2003. Next instance is that during the ALMS seasons (2001, 2002 and some of 2003) Franz was working out of a 5th wheel transporter. Instead of buying a new high tech transporter for America, he instead put that money into developing the car..

And no, i wasnt saying Konrad was getting fair respect in the series, its just here. Nobody talks about them often.. I understand the British/English thing about it, and thats fine. But its not the same thing to me. I dont follow a team by their nationality. I follow the team if i like the drivers, the car, the attitude of the crew, etc.. i dont follow many american teams, since i can sometimes care less about some of the american porsche teams.. Why are so many people talking about the Courages? even without this whole engine issue, it seems everyone talks about them here all the time. I understand that a few of the members here are French, but there are Germans of that same amount. You cant just like a team because of their nationality!!