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16 Jul 2010, 17:31 (Ref:2727679) | #1151 | ||
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It's time to switch to Whiskey, we've been drinking Beer all night - Corb Lund |
16 Jul 2010, 17:53 (Ref:2727692) | #1152 | ||
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series! |
16 Jul 2010, 18:10 (Ref:2727702) | #1153 | |||
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Honestly, if say Ganassi and Penske don't like the rules (not likely I am sure by not only having the most money but also the most influence) both have NASCAR operations that are money makers, especially Penske since he's the de-facto Dodge works team. They are making concessions that help guys less rich or diversified as they are, but in the end it doesn't benefit the fan because its not what you want. Allowing people to design their own aero packages is piecemeal, you can't see that? How are the guys putting the product on the track are more important than the people watching it? If Indycar got better ratings, more corporate money would flow into the series then we wouldn't have to worry about back-markers so much. In fact I can't be concerned about them, racing teams can't have it both ways. What I mean by that - Some feel its not fair to be critical of rich men driving their own cars in Sports Car Racing, yet throughly professional racing doesn't have that problem. But there's always a crusade to save the back-markers that are back there for one reason or another. In both cases I'm taking the position of fan advocate, I want the best product possible if you expect me to watch it. But if you already know I will watch Lawn Mower Racing, then there isn't much incentive to be successful. What Indycar is figuring is two things - The base will be happy with crumbs despite the moaning online The casual fan won't notice what's under the skin So basically they are willing to either give you crumbs or think your some sort of idiot. As Marshall said on his Speed TV post, he's insulted that the powers that be feel casual fans don't want to know the technical side of Motorsports. Indycar is not NASCAR and the typical NASCAR fan will not watch Indycar. So the fan that will support Jr even if he's driving a firetruck or a clown car will still be Jr fans. In NASCAR the driver is vastly more important than what they are driving. Indycar fans are not NASCAR fans and casual fans don't care about Indycar because there's nothing interesting about it. But clearly from the general disappointment around the net, this decision was a mistake. |
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16 Jul 2010, 18:48 (Ref:2727716) | #1154 | ||
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It's time to switch to Whiskey, we've been drinking Beer all night - Corb Lund |
16 Jul 2010, 19:07 (Ref:2727729) | #1155 | ||
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Well if that's what it takes for "the greatest race track in the world" to make it, then you and I will always be on a different page. Where is all the technology, competition and innovation at? That blew away a while ago it appears, but like I said keep going with your empty grandstands and tv programs that get outdrawn by get rich quick real estate infomercials. |
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16 Jul 2010, 19:12 (Ref:2727731) | #1156 | |
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Here is another little blow to all these breathless body kit manufacturers no doubt lining up 10 deep to build front wings:
http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...nt-car-drivers You gotta pay a $200K tax to the "technical committee". Again they are stacking the cards against anyone except maybe ganassi or penske to built a body kit. |
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16 Jul 2010, 19:24 (Ref:2727741) | #1157 | ||
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I don't think that team owners are not more important than the fans...I think that both are important...the problem is this: "if Ganassi and Penske don't like the rules, both have NASCAR operations"...we really want to see some teams go away? We want to see a scenario like 1996? We want to see Jimmy kite against Dan Drinan? Or PDM against Arizona Motorsports) (with all due respect to the work of these teams? I think no...I think (I said that before) it is better to have a compromise...some good rules fors fans nad some good rules for team owners...always hoping that they can be good for both...I hope too to see more tv ratings, more fans, more money, but I don't think that these results can be achieved by making team owners run away...Were we enjoyed to see the first year of IRL? I think nobody can say yes...I think that this new rules give to anyone who wants the possibility to make some techincal innovation (in aero kit and in engine)...not so much like some people wanted, but better than in the current situation...let's go to see what happens...
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16 Jul 2010, 19:25 (Ref:2727742) | #1158 | ||
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Well...I have no problem with governments offering incentives to entice businesses to build there, employing a workforce that will spend money in other parts of the state economy and pay taxes, etc...
I'd rather have the government do that than regulate and restrict businesses like their doing now... As for the "costs" to do this, I've sent some e-mails to an acquaintance who had experience in both building and designing a new chassis like an IndyCar, plus working on a project that involved creating "aero kits' for an existing chassis to find out a good, reasonable "ballpark figure" on what the capital outlay would be to do this. I'll post you on what he says... |
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series! |
16 Jul 2010, 19:30 (Ref:2727745) | #1159 | |||
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"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
16 Jul 2010, 19:41 (Ref:2727749) | #1160 | ||
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What it is now, God knows, but one thing is clear and that is the irl has tried to emulate nascar with a similar style of pack racing on ovals with everyone in the same looking machines and it has been a horrific failure in more ways than one. The nascar people want their nascar and can't be bothered with indycar. So the other option is to go back to the demographic that powered CART and that was 25-50 year olds with higher IQ's and more stimulated by technology plus had disposable income attractive to sponsors. With the new Dullara those people are gone, never to return. And what are you left with? Well a few people that wish things could be great again and a few people in indianapolis that still believe it's 1965 and the center of the American racing universe is indianapolis. The actual supportive "base" that you have I'd make a rough estimate that it is 10 times smaller than in 1995. I think one thing that happened with the baby boomer generation on down to the current 18 year olds and ups is that people were no longer content to watch anymore, but wanted to do instead. Probably back in 1952 you would be in awe at what you saw at Indy. But now I think people would rather be out racing on their own with the SCCA or NASA or historics or riding motorcycles or boating or whatever then to sit on their butt at the racetrack and watch 20 identical cars circulate at the same speed. Or on the inverse you have the people that would rather be in the digital world with their PS3's and Xbox's. Time is the bridge of no return. tony george wanted to go back to an era already passed and you can't have a redo of history the exact same way. It's time for a new era with new people, new ideas, new technology and so on. It's not time to be stagnant and boring and clinging desperately to this idea that indy is the center of the universe. |
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16 Jul 2010, 21:20 (Ref:2727775) | #1161 | ||
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These reasons are why I'm for radicalism in all of motor-sports. You must make progress to grow. Anything less, even remaining exactly the same, will cause degeneration. Thats my view on it. |
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Please, call me dye. |
16 Jul 2010, 21:20 (Ref:2727776) | #1162 | ||
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"Time is the bridge of no return."
If that's an original line, it is one hell of a keeper. Seriously. |
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16 Jul 2010, 21:49 (Ref:2727792) | #1163 | |||
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I support a good product on the track. You can't do it by using the previous model as your guide, that's a FAILED MODEL on all accounts. I don't understand why there was an appeasement of the oval purist (seemingly all based in Indianapolis) and divide the Championship. Why, I thought we were embracing diversity? So this whole thing is flawed, why separate but equal? Where's MLK when you need him... The CART/CCWS faction is MUCH LARGER than the IRL Oval Centrist faction, that is very clear by the changes in the schedule. They should be pushing in that direction. In that sense, its not about embracing history its embracing something that works! IRL in of itself did not work, I never watched it when it was an Oval only series (too much like NASCAR) and a bunch of Class B or C or WORST drivers. When many of the CART regulars made the jump, the overall talent level went WAY up witnessed by the victories/domination. We wanted to see multiple chassis and engines because with limited testing somebody like one of the mid-pack teams could made the correct call and do well. The better teams would either engineer themselves out of the hole or like the biggest teams always did, buy that combination as well. But they would be a season or so behind in development, it made the racing better. Wow competition! Now whenever the ovals come up, we already know who's going to run up front, the true surprise has been how well Sato has run on ovals thus far, that's one positive this season to build on. As I said on all accounts the changes thus far aren't good or positive and will not change the direction of this series going forward, that's just honest opinion and its shared from what I can tell by a majority of the fanbase and even a few drivers. |
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16 Jul 2010, 22:03 (Ref:2727800) | #1164 | |||
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Ford could use its "Eco-Boost" tag line for its line of Indycar engines but Ford will not burn up millions developing their own engines. They do not own Cosworth anymore. This is why its important not to make the chassis in such a way that it won't support production based engines that are not stressed members. Lola is much better equipped to do this based on the fact that the B06/10 chassis has the following engines - Judd V10 (Drayson, Rebellion) Mazda Turbo Production based 4 cylinder (Dyson) Aston Martin Production based V12 (AMR) HPD Honda Racing V8 (RML) The Million Dollar Tag isn't that big a deal actually because its just so Indy Car has some cash on hand and in return Ford can use Indycar logos and other media and vise-versa, think of it as not only supplying engines but partnering with the series. |
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17 Jul 2010, 00:43 (Ref:2727845) | #1165 | ||
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Basically when I wrote that I was visualizing moving forward in time and as you do the bridge behind you crumbles and you can't go back no matter how hard you try. But I think what we can do is look at history and see what worked and what didn't work. There is plenty of open wheel history to look through. What always made CART/Indycar racing interesting was the innovation and the competition with a bit of new technology here and there. And since 1911 that is what built Indy as well, despite some stagnant periods for a couple of years here and there. With the turd that the irl laid on the stage the other day with their vague hologram, there is no new technology or innovation, no great competition or challenge. Nothing at all either with a big noise or drama or horsepower to make peoples jaws drop. I am of firm belief that there are many great engineers out there that could have concocted some rules that opened things up a bit and made it a challenge and exciting for the fans while maintaining some level of safety. I think that's why we stopped going to the Moon, the challenge was conquered, people saw what they needed to see and we moved on(at least for now). Same with indycar and indy. Car manufacturers, sponsors, fans, have all mostly moved on, except for a few hold outs. The challenge and excitement is gone and with these new rules none of those people are coming back. People will say, well everyone and their brother wants to make body kits for the Dullara and there is your innovation. Well I think if indycar felt that to be true, they would not have imposed a $200K graft/tax/payoff to indycar nor made the rules as such the kits could not be evaluated in a reasonable manner, nor pulled some $1.5 million dollar figure out of their messy behind to restrict R&D costs. Look beyond the BS. |
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17 Jul 2010, 13:40 (Ref:2727990) | #1166 | ||
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"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
17 Jul 2010, 20:53 (Ref:2728243) | #1167 | |||
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I predict somebody will try to make their own aero kits for these things, but they will not the traditional places where you find such stuff. Wirth is an excellent example, only uses computer modeling, no wind tunnels, works with a fixed set of suppliers. If they can do a complete car in CFD (ARX-02) and an F1 car in CFD, then doing aero work on Indycars is no problem. But will it make sense cost wise? I'm not so sure. |
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17 Jul 2010, 20:57 (Ref:2728246) | #1168 | ||
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"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
17 Jul 2010, 22:30 (Ref:2728284) | #1169 | ||
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18 Jul 2010, 14:30 (Ref:2728453) | #1170 | ||
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In all fairness, the ARX-01 is a pretty good car
Oh, hang on, its an Oreca... damn.. |
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'My lovely horse, running through the fields! Where are you going, with your fetlocks blowing in the wind?' |
19 Jul 2010, 21:30 (Ref:2729324) | #1171 | ||
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Apparently Fernandes from Lotus is looking at a return to IndyCar in 2012 with an aero kit. I would assume an engine would also happen if that was the case, perhaps a re-badged Cosworth?
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19 Jul 2010, 21:56 (Ref:2729350) | #1172 | ||
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"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
19 Jul 2010, 22:33 (Ref:2729371) | #1173 | |||
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Quote:
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/...-empire-grows/ |
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19 Jul 2010, 22:55 (Ref:2729389) | #1174 | |||
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"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
20 Jul 2010, 03:08 (Ref:2729433) | #1175 | ||
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One thing that the Lotus/ KV collaboration did promise was a two-car team. When that comes to pass, perhaps the signs of a more comprehensive program will be evident.
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