Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Of course Lola want to keep any money they make and so do Dallara, Swift and BAT. How else to they recoup the R&D costs, which will be significant when producing a brand new vehicle? They aren't charitable institutions.



Is it necessarily in Lola's, BAT's or Swift's interests to design and build add on aeros. Won't this ramp up their R&D costs? I would have thought it would.
Indy fans have been complaining about IndyCar because it became a featureless spec series and fans idealy would like to see multiple chassis and engines like CART.



And in the first paragraph of this post you said, regarding Lola, "and they threw a bone to fans with a couple different token car body designs. (which would become a spec over time because teams would learn via testing and practice which setup was the most slippery in the air and fastest)".

That's exactly what can happen with the new Dallara/Honda.

All of the other builders clearly stated up front that the only way that their participation as a full manufacturer of everything on the car would be economically viable and deliverable at the price points suggested by ICS would be if they were the SOLE SUPPLIER of the cars...

PERIOD

Anyone who thinks that multple builders from the ground up would be cheaper than what a sole supplier can provide should roll me a big fat spleef of whatever it is you're smoking, because I'm having a bad day and could use a good buzz about right now.

Wasn't going to happen...They're trying to reduce costs to compete...The 1990s are long past...doing what CART did was expensive, and just isn't pssible in these days and times...

Reality Check

This is at least a compromise...Let's see who does or does not come into the game.

[JagtechOhio]

dude,,,,pfssssssssst,,,,,,Tim......pfssssssssssssst,,,,your hit.

[JagtechOhio]

Isn't he still under contract with the Muppets?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

All of the other builders clearly stated up front that the only way that their participation as a full manufacturer of everything on the car would be economically viable and deliverable at the price points suggested by ICS would be if they were the SOLE SUPPLIER of the cars...

PERIOD

Anyone who thinks that multple builders from the ground up would be cheaper than what a sole supplier can provide should roll me a big fat spleef of whatever it is you're smoking, because I'm having a bad day and could use a good buzz about right now.

Wasn't going to happen...Their trying to reduce costs to compete...The 1990s are long past...doing what CART did was expensive, and just isn't pssible in these days and times...

I'm well aware of the above and have never said anything to the contrary, you can go back if you like and read my posts on this thread, so I don't quite understand your point?

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Reality Check

This is at least a compromise...Let's see who does or does not come into the game.

We'll know in about 18 months time.

[JagtechOhio]

bjohn, they nicked the Lola bodywork idea (I think Purnell was taking the credit), but they left out the transferable tub. Barnhart said they were thinking about it during the Q&A, but there is no clear plan to do it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

bjohn, they nicked the Lola bodywork idea (I think Purnell was taking the credit), but they left out the transferable tub. Barnhart said they were thinking about it during the Q&A, but there is no clear plan to do it.

It would appear that way. I thought the transferable tub was an excellent idea.
I don't see Lola getting involved in a bodywork competition, I could be wrong but I don't think it would be worth their while as it could get rather expensive.

[JagtechOhio]

Ashmore (BAT) made a comment about the R&D estimate for the aero kit in the Pruett article:

“You’re talking several millions of dollars. So you’ve got to sell a lot of kits to recoup your investment.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by marcostraz

I think that he Pruett's article is too pessimistic...

Pruett used to manage an IRL team and has managed many other racing teams through the years. He has an insight that many journos, let alone forumers, don't have.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by climb

Ehy, Tony Fernandes may have read your post!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85280

Sam Collins of Racecar Engineering apparently said on the motorsports midweek radio show on www.radiolemans.com that Lotus Racing would likely build an aero package for 2012.

Wirth Engineering (who handled the Acura LMP chassis designs and revisions) also is very interested in possibly participating and feels that such an opportunity is well-suited to his company's specific line of operations and goals.

If they do come aboard, looks like we'll have some diversity there....

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Ashmore (BAT) made a comment about the R&D estimate for the aero kit in the Pruett article:

“You’re talking several millions of dollars. So you’ve got to sell a lot of kits to recoup your investment.

Lots and lots and lots beyond what a market exists for.

The more that has come out about this, the more it is clear that it was total amateur hour and the bodywork thing is totally ridiculous.

I imagine most teams will go with the $36K dallara supplied kits, so that leaves people like penske and ganassi who maybe might do their own. WHOOP TE DO!

This whole thing is so stupid and what Tim said before about price points, well those were stupid too.

The stands are empty at most races, no one watches on tv except for a few people in indy and some silly body work is not going to fix that.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

The kicker from the Cotman tweets above is that teams will not be able to evaluate performance of a body kit before they place a order. So an owner would look at the CFD data, examine the panels, and gamble his $70K per kit that the car would outperform the spec Dallara aero. Or not.

Yes so they open up the body kit rules and then make it impossible to use driving most of the herd to dallara.

It's funny these clowns at indycar think everyone is stupid. There is a reason tv ratings are .09 and no one watches.

[mountainstar]

The other thing that is interesting for such a grand announcement was where was all the team owners.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by RacingNeedsRealTVcoverage

I am warming up to the new concept, but I would have much rather had an open formula. At least that is still available in the Pikes Peak Intl Hill Climb..

Which is irrelevant too... How many people even knew about the hill climb?

[mountainstar]

And the other interesting thing is that you don't get $5 million dollar taxpayer funded state grants, the governor on board, a deal with local politicians and other yahoos to build a factory and whatever other tax credits nonsense, all wrapped up in 2 days.

Some said it was going to be dallara all along and it appears that all this went down not days ago, but months ago.

The MORONIC panel was simply a cover to fans and everyone else that somehow indycar was so thoughtful and wanted everyone's opinion and how there would be this new era. LOLA, BAT, DELTA WING, all were taking it in the bum the whole time.

[ptclaus98]

I remember thinking it was going to be Dallara when they announced they would be moving their IICS program to the States. I don't know why I ever began to think otherwise.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Which is irrelevant too... How many people even knew about the hill climb?

I would say IndyCar would like to have some of their fans.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

And the other interesting thing is that you don't get $5 million dollar taxpayer funded state grants, the governor on board, a deal with local politicians and other yahoos to build a factory and whatever other tax credits nonsense, all wrapped up in 2 days.

Some said it was going to be dallara all along and it appears that all this went down not days ago, but months ago.

The MORONIC panel was simply a cover to fans and everyone else that somehow indycar was so thoughtful and wanted everyone's opinion and how there would be this new era. LOLA, BAT, DELTA WING, all were taking it in the bum the whole time.

BAT was going to build their car, if chosen, within a 30 mile radius of Indy...probably in Brownsburg, IN, where a lot of motorsports industry suppliers, NHRA teams, etc., are locating...The State would have given them similar treatment...

The State of Indiana has given tax incentives to OW teams and other motorsports-related industries of all types for decades. So has the City of Indianapolis. This is nothing new.

When Reynard built their wind tunnel here in the 1990s, they got massive property tax reductions for their square footage that they built, and now the Auto Research Center that resides there is doing an expansion...an additional 35,000 sq. ft. with zero increase in their tax assessment by the City.

If Lola would have said, "We'll build our IndyCar in Indiana" they would have gotten a similar deal...the City and the State know how important that industry is to the central indiana economy.

Dallara was up front about it and made the commitment to want to build the factory in Speedway itself...the others did not, with the possible exception of BAT...

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Sam Collins of Racecar Engineering apparently said on the motorsports midweek radio show on www.radiolemans.com that Lotus Racing would likely build an aero package for 2012.

Wirth Engineering (who handled the Acura LMP chassis designs and revisions) also is very interested in possibly participating and feels that such an opportunity is well-suited to his company's specific line of operations and goals.

If they do come aboard, looks like we'll have some diversity there....

Darn it Tim for you I hope so, you and Tom have the best rants but you just want it to succeed. In the meantime they could have opened up the tire rules, there is very interesting discussion about that on the radio le mans web site, I can't find the link, ask Tim Gray or John for the link if you want to hear it.

Besides Mazda who with partner AER could supply engines to an Indy Car team, I don't see anybody outside of them supplying engines because it would require a clean sheet of paper = $$$$ Especially for Boutique Engine builders like Judd and Zytek. I'm sure they would love for somebody to put their name on the valve covers.

Plus they were determine to get some Delta Wing out of this project and I'm not sure I like the heavy rear end bias to the side pods.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Darn it Tim for you I hope so, you and Tom have the best rants but you just want it to succeed. In the meantime they could have opened up the tire rules, there is very interesting discussion about that on the radio le mans web site, I can't find the link, ask Tim Gray or John for the link if you want to hear it.

Besides Mazda who with partner AER could supply engines to an Indy Car team, I don't see anybody outside of them supplying engines because it would require a clean sheet of paper = $$$$ Especially for Boutique Engine builders like Judd and Zytek. I'm sure they would love for somebody to put their name on the valve covers.

Plus they were determine to get some Delta Wing out of this project and I'm not sure I like the heavy rear end bias to the side pods.

Has Judd ever made anything less than a V8?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

I would say IndyCar would like to have some of their fans.

Indy Car has the fan base they are going to have going forward, TV is about to become more segmented and fractured. Without heavy public relations and marketing to automotive enthusiast whenever possible the fan base is not going to grow much more.

The casual sports fan will watch racing if there's something interesting about it. Right now, even with this change there's nothing of interest here.

I have an idea that would blow the top off of American Motorsports, but unless I can get the money to make the offer or somebody has the same idea I do, it won't happen.

Indycar at the Glen got .8 and ALMS does similar numbers on Cable TV and a channel that's not even free like ESPN.

If there's room to go up, still think they shot themselves in the foot.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Has Judd ever made anything less than a V8?

No but what's stopping them from doing it?

I don't think there's a bespoke racing V6 anywhere. Most V6 are based on production engines, ie: World Series By Renault or Nissan depending on which era your talking about. The Nissan engine was also used in ALMS LMP2/675 as well.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

No but what's stopping them from doing it?

I don't think there's a bespoke racing V6 anywhere. Most V6 are based on production engines, ie: World Series By Renault or Nissan depending on which era your talking about. The Nissan engine was also used in ALMS LMP2/675 as well.

Money?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Indy Car has the fan base they are going to have going forward, TV is about to become more segmented and fractured. Without heavy public relations and marketing to automotive enthusiast whenever possible the fan base is not going to grow much more.

The casual sports fan will watch racing if there's something interesting about it. Right now, even with this change there's nothing of interest here.

I have an idea that would blow the top off of American Motorsports, but unless I can get the money to make the offer or somebody has the same idea I do, it won't happen.

Indycar at the Glen got .8 and ALMS does similar numbers on Cable TV and a channel that's not even free like ESPN.

If there's room to go up, still think they shot themselves in the foot.

Move it back to ESPN and plead with them to give a damn about it?

[JagtechOhio]

Lotus spent a few million and have a Lotus in IndyCar. I guess they could spend a few million more and make their Lotus IndyCar a Lotus Indycar.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

BAT was going to build their car, if chosen, within a 30 mile radius of Indy...probably in Brownsburg, IN, where a lot of motorsports industry suppliers, NHRA teams, etc., are locating...The State would have given them similar treatment...

The State of Indiana has given tax incentives to OW teams and other motorsports-related industries of all types for decades. So has the City of Indianapolis. This is nothing new.

When Reynard built their wind tunnel here in the 1990s, they got massive property tax reductions for their square footage that they built, and now the Auto Research Center that resides there is doing an expansion...an additional 35,000 sq. ft. with zero increase in their tax assessment by the City.

If Lola would have said, "We'll build our IndyCar in Indiana" they would have gotten a similar deal...the City and the State know how important that industry is to the central indiana economy.

Dallara was up front about it and made the commitment to want to build the factory in Speedway itself...the others did not, with the possible exception of BAT...

Yes I am well aware of all the palm greasing and perks that has been going on since at least 1993.

My point is none of this happens overnight. Hence I believe this has been going on for months and all the silly MORONIC committee members voting was absurd. The decision was long ago taken above their heads. They were merely a front.

I also find it a bit shoddy arm twisting whoever the winner was to build something in indy.

And it really bothers me that $5 million of taxpayers money goes to build dullaras.

But I say keep on. I think you guys have set course for an irretrievable decline.