Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[duke_toaster]

IIRC the deal is it's sponsored by Lotus Cars. It appears Lotus Cars and Lotus Racing are getting more and more friendly, especially with the latter wanting to get involved. If there is a deal with Lotus Racing, expect Fairuz Fauzy to appear.

[JagtechOhio]

I wrote it all out in February, Lola had their shot last November when Mayor Ballard went to visit but they wouldn't sign on for the big prize. So Dallara made the committment.

MCT did too, I wonder what's going on with them. Davey Hamilton and a couple of partners bought them like 6 months ago, with the intention of moving the company to Indy.

The ICONIC panel gave The Sisters cover, not only for this deal but as an easy way to excuse themselves from the Delta fight. Hiring a front man has been a good investment.

When you look at the panel...who was selected, and what was actually accomplished...they rubber-stamped the decision and put off all the real work to be done. These guys had the time and knowledge to write the full specs and set up the technical advisory committee, and all of that got pushed off to someone else's desk in the future.

Any bets on a Delta Wing Investors Group meeting in Toronto this weekend?

[JagtechOhio]

I don't know who Fauzy Bear is, but the arrival of a Lotus/Cosworth/Toyota V6 would be a welcomed addition. Fauzy can drive the Exige pace car.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by climb

the last 15 years should reassure you

Hardly, the last 15 years have been a bit of a disaster

Originally Posted by climb

that car didn't need more improvements than others; actually cos of HRT financial issues, it had no improvements at all , and despite that, the gap from the best (which had a lot of improvements!) has decreased throughout the season, which means that the basic design was not that bad.

If as you say the car didn't need any more improvements than any others and even though HRT could not afford any improvements, it sounds like the car is a bit of a lemon. As it is, they are bottom of the the costructor's championship; well Virgin are actually bottom by virtue of alphabetical order.

[awrb]

So who's going to make the aerokits? It's easy to say that no one will bother and Dallara are going to be the only ones to race, but I don't think that will happen. For a start, while they may not be able to make a lot of money on this, they will be getting promotion for whatever brand they run under. So we could see some specialist engineering firms going for this to get themselves a name, and I think that's what IndyCar are hoping for. After all, there may not be a lot of money in this, but why do the teams bother racing when there surely are better ways to make money out there.

As for the engines, yes it is just an open invitation at the moment, but they need to propose smoething to get the manufacturers interested. It was probably that or turning round and saying that Honda are on their own again.

The rules aren't perfect, and they aren't exactly what we all wanted, but I think it is a step in that direction. And these rules are just part of a much greater picture. We need more accessable coverage, more promotion, better races...

If the new package can give us that (which provided there is some variety out there, it will) then IndyCar will be on it's rise back up. We just need to hope some engineers/engine builders are interested, but that's the same as all motorsport really.

[ptclaus98]

Bernard said today on 1070 AM in Indy that the R&D for the kits would be $1.5M at the max. I wonder what you guys think about that figure?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Move it back to ESPN and plead with them to give a damn about it?

No talking a certain person about his future career prospects.

Saying anymore would give it away and I rather not.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by awrb

So who's going to make the aerokits? It's easy to say that no one will bother and Dallara are going to be the only ones to race, but I don't think that will happen. For a start, while they may not be able to make a lot of money on this, they will be getting promotion for whatever brand they run under. So we could see some specialist engineering firms going for this to get themselves a name, and I think that's what IndyCar are hoping for. After all, there may not be a lot of money in this, but why do the teams bother racing when there surely are better ways to make money out there.

As for the engines, yes it is just an open invitation at the moment, but they need to propose smoething to get the manufacturers interested. It was probably that or turning round and saying that Honda are on their own again.

The rules aren't perfect, and they aren't exactly what we all wanted, but I think it is a step in that direction. And these rules are just part of a much greater picture. We need more accessable coverage, more promotion, better races...

If the new package can give us that (which provided there is some variety out there, it will) then IndyCar will be on it's rise back up. We just need to hope some engineers/engine builders are interested, but that's the same as all motorsport really.

The rules are never perfect when you appease the few (team owners) and not the many (the fans!)

What Auto Racing has yet to understand is revenue sharing, this is why Green Bay is still relevant in Football and smaller market teams have a chance in Baseball and Basketball.

The top guns of Indycar have no stake in the game, just a childish desire to play with open wheel cars. If Indycar folded its tent today, they would just start another series. They don't believe ALMS is the vehicle to take over or compete fairly in US motorsport because of cultural bias against road racing.

What did the fans want? Open chassis. So instead of wasting your time coming up with a car that is polarizing, they should have designed a box to put the cars into and put a ceiling on the cost. The Europeans would have been at an disadvantage because of shipping cost, employment laws in favor of employees (imagine that) and the Euro. But there could have been a way to allow both Lola, Swift and Dallara both into the series.

It would have been what we as fans want. Would other teams close shop? Maybe but that's their own fault, they don't like racing enough, they like a specific form of racing TOO much.

The only way you can help the "Sisters Of The Poor" is to help them out with dollars. As I said if they understood the concept of revenue sharing smaller teams would have a chance.

What we wanted was more engines selection. For different sounds! Go to an ALMS race, guess what they all sound different!

As I said, the ALMS is proactive, but only to a point. I have been critical on them for reacting too slow and loosing all but one Acura car and Penske's factory supported Porsche effort, shrinking LMP down to 4 competitive teams and 2 also-rans.

But as least we have a highly competitive GT class, a highly competitive LMPC class and yes I know a highly competitive GTC class and 34-36 cars.

As I said I will watch Indycar I do (at least the road course events and don't get me started on the two separate championships). I just wonder how long it will be relevant?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Money?

Correct, I don't know if they can build a turbocharged bespoke engine for $550,000-$650,000 a copy. Neither have built turbo engines before.

I would say Mazda's AER engine is cheaper than even Honda's engine. So they should be working HARD to get them to back this. Doubt it will happen.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Correct, I don't know if they can build a turbocharged bespoke engine for $550,000-$650,000 a copy. Neither have built turbo engines before.

I would say Mazda's AER engine is cheaper than even Honda's engine. So they should be working HARD to get them to back this. Doubt it will happen.

I bet Honduh got the same deal as Dallara.

[JagtechOhio]

I think if Ashmore says it will be several million, he knows what he is talking about.

And if IRL says it will be $1.5M, they don't know what they are talking about. Or they are setting arbitrary minimum price caps for everything, which may or may not be adhered to when exclusive suppliers ask for the check.

Or that competition is lured, but mandated pricing might prevent entrants from developing a legitimately competitive product. So they lose their a$$, or they offer a non-competitive product that no one will buy.

Doesn't this program require CAD and CFD programs, which then must be reviewed by a non-existant IRL technical committee? To insure relatively equal performance and some acceptable limit of turbulence control?

Then prototype mold costruction and panels to be fit to a tub and wind tunnel tested? Destructive testing for safety (side pods)? Then panels made for the inspection of customers for fit, finish and weight. And the customers cannot track test the kit until they purchase it (according to Cotman). And they only get two choices.

I thought rear wings were very expensive to design and manufacture. More than one engine cover design from a supplier might be desireable or necessary if alternate engines appear in the series. And constructors must insure adequate production capacity and materials inventory to build kits and replacement spares for all competitors, before they take the first order.

That's all I can think of at the moment. And you get $70K for the whole kit.

Part of the argument was apparent when the Delta open-sourcing issue was explained: if parts pricing is mandated, who pays for R&D time? Who is rewarded for patent rights? Nobody. You get paid for parts, and only recoup the investment with volume.

To me, that leads to aero profiles that will be generally similar from supplier to supplier. And if one is radically different but still accepted, it might be because an engineer found a speed secret that made his product superior. So everybody else loses their customers, or have to retool and start all over again.

[JagtechOhio]

Oh yeah, about capping R&D costs...who monitors that? Did the IRL and other teams know that Ganassi had an underground test tunnel to maximize L/D profiles on their bodywork? If a small fabricator has to pay for wind tunnel test time, how does he compete with a manufacturer who has their own full test facility in house?

All of those questions are the ones I would be asking if I was Swift, or Lola, whoever. There are probably better questions, my own experience goes no farther than laying up fiberglass in nose molds.

[JagtechOhio]

Just published on Racin' today, this is an excerpt of a non-attributed release from Delta:

“Our many partners and supporters have invested significant time, financial resources and effort into DeltaWing. We want to thank them for their commitment, courage and vision for the future. We have initiated the process of reviewing options for DeltaWing which we will present to our investors, industrial partners and governmental advisors. We will announce our plans for the DeltaWing in the near future.”

Sounds like an owner's meeting to me.

[climb]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

...

The kicker from the Cotman tweets above is that teams will not be able to evaluate performance of a body kit before they place a order. So an owner would look at the CFD data, examine the panels, and gamble his $70K per kit that the car would outperform the spec Dallara aero. Or not.

...

problems of short memory?

The uncertainty about different packages performance has always existed and been sorted out in the first 10 yrs of IRL's life: Open tests were held in the winter, and teams compared them, not only about bodywork: the whole car was in discussion!
Now it can only be easier.

[JagtechOhio]

keep climbing.

Then jump.

[JagtechOhio]

Here's why continuing to run the current chassis was a good plan. The third variation would be the verizon car with no airbox for a turbo installation. Any alternate body kits to the new chassis adds even more.

[marcostraz]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

The rules are never perfect when you appease the few (team owners) and not the many (the fans!)

I'm not totally agree with this...the fans (I'm a fan!!!) are important, but team owners are important too...it's important that they are satisfied about rules...or we want to have dissatisfied team owners? We want to see unhappy people make divisions or go away? We ar fans: we would be happy to see a series with perfect rules for us and with (with all the respect) tdrivers like Steve Knapp o Joe Gosek? I think it is better to have a compromise...

I think that there is too much pessimism about this new rules...I think there are some interesting aspect, and some possibile scenario...let's see what happens...

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

I don't know who Fauzy Bear is, but the arrival of a Lotus/Cosworth/Toyota V6 would be a welcomed addition. Fauzy can drive the Exige pace car.

Two years of GP2, nul points. That's the only assessment of his talent one can make. To be fair, he did have a little more success in a season of GP2 Asia and some A1GP outings for Malaysia.

[JagtechOhio]

In that case many folks here would view his participation as un Bear able.

[JagtechOhio]

Some of you will enjoy climbing and flyin' to new heights of wisdom without any impediment.

Knock yourself out.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4...eft-automobili

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Yes I am well aware of all the palm greasing and perks that has been going on since at least 1993.

I also find it a bit shoddy arm twisting whoever the winner was to build something in indy.

And it really bothers me that $5 million of taxpayers money goes to build dullaras.

It's no different than what any other state or locality has done across America to attract major businesses to build and operate facilities within their state or community...I don't care whether it is a United Airlines maintenance facility, a Chevy parts factory, a plant to build batteries for electric cars and trucks, an ethanol processing plant, or whatever...

It's called Incentives...be it tax breaks, grants, abatements, exemptions, or whatever...Every state in the Union does them to attract new businesses and to create jobs in their state.

It isn't "arm twising," it is "incentives' and it is smart business.

Indiana is one of 50 players in that game...and that is just the states...cities do it as well...

Welcome to the real world, mountainstar...

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Just published on Racin' today, this is an excerpt of a non-attributed release from Delta:

“Our many partners and supporters have invested significant time, financial resources and effort into DeltaWing. We want to thank them for their commitment, courage and vision for the future. We have initiated the process of reviewing options for DeltaWing which we will present to our investors, industrial partners and governmental advisors. We will announce our plans for the DeltaWing in the near future.”

Sounds like an owner's meeting to me.

When DeltaWing originally announced their project and their plans, I believe that you called it the "First Shot"

Here just came the "Second Shot"....Right Acros the IndyCar Series' Bow...

[Amar7605]

I know we're discussing chassis here, but has anyone noticed how there's no air intake above the driver's head? Is there a plan to have turbocharged engines in the works?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Amar7605

I know we're discussing chassis here, but has anyone noticed how there's no air intake above the driver's head? Is there a plan to have turbocharged engines in the works?

Yes.

[Amar7605]

I know we're discussing chassis here, but has anyone noticed that in the artist renditions (at least the ones I've seen so far) that there's no air intake above the driver's head? Is there a turbocharged engine plan in the works?