Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[icemachine]

Originally Posted by Amar7605

I know we're discussing chassis here, but has anyone noticed that in the artist renditions (at least the ones I've seen so far) that there's no air intake above the driver's head? Is there a turbocharged engine plan in the works?

Turbo V6's I believe

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by icemachine

Turbo V6's I believe

Or in-line 4s also allowed...Turbo of course

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by marcostraz

I'm not totally agree with this...the fans (I'm a fan!!!) are important, but team owners are important too...it's important that they are satisfied about rules...or we want to have dissatisfied team owners? We want to see unhappy people make divisions or go away? We ar fans: we would be happy to see a series with perfect rules for us and with (with all the respect) tdrivers like Steve Knapp o Joe Gosek? I think it is better to have a compromise...

I think that there is too much pessimism about this new rules...I think there are some interesting aspect, and some possibile scenario...let's see what happens...

Team Owners are not more important than the fans! Are you saying you feel sorry to any stick and ball owner that pays a player millions of dollars? He's all of a sudden not going to be able feed his family or not pay the bills? That's ridiculous!

Honestly, if say Ganassi and Penske don't like the rules (not likely I am sure by not only having the most money but also the most influence) both have NASCAR operations that are money makers, especially Penske since he's the de-facto Dodge works team.

They are making concessions that help guys less rich or diversified as they are, but in the end it doesn't benefit the fan because its not what you want. Allowing people to design their own aero packages is piecemeal, you can't see that?

How are the guys putting the product on the track are more important than the people watching it?

If Indycar got better ratings, more corporate money would flow into the series then we wouldn't have to worry about back-markers so much. In fact I can't be concerned about them, racing teams can't have it both ways.

What I mean by that -

Some feel its not fair to be critical of rich men driving their own cars in Sports Car Racing, yet throughly professional racing doesn't have that problem. But there's always a crusade to save the back-markers that are back there for one reason or another.

In both cases I'm taking the position of fan advocate, I want the best product possible if you expect me to watch it. But if you already know I will watch Lawn Mower Racing, then there isn't much incentive to be successful.

What Indycar is figuring is two things -

The base will be happy with crumbs despite the moaning online

The casual fan won't notice what's under the skin

So basically they are willing to either give you crumbs or think your some sort of idiot.

As Marshall said on his Speed TV post, he's insulted that the powers that be feel casual fans don't want to know the technical side of Motorsports.

Indycar is not NASCAR and the typical NASCAR fan will not watch Indycar. So the fan that will support Jr even if he's driving a firetruck or a clown car will still be Jr fans. In NASCAR the driver is vastly more important than what they are driving.

Indycar fans are not NASCAR fans and casual fans don't care about Indycar because there's nothing interesting about it.

But clearly from the general disappointment around the net, this decision was a mistake.

[icemachine]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Or in-line 4s also allowed...Turbo of course

Would be nice to see something from Ford, they have their "Eco-boost" line, I could see KK's Cossies coming back under that branding

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

It's no different than what any other state or locality has done across America to attract major businesses to build and operate facilities within their state or community...I don't care whether it is a United Airlines maintenance facility, a Chevy parts factory, a plant to build batteries for electric cars and trucks, an ethanol processing plant, or whatever...

It's called Incentives...be it tax breaks, grants, abatements, exemptions, or whatever...Every state in the Union does them to attract new businesses and to create jobs in their state.

It isn't "arm twising," it is "incentives' and it is smart business.

Indiana is one of 50 players in that game...and that is just the states...cities do it as well...

Welcome to the real world, mountainstar...

Yes, again well aware of all the graft and gubment incentives in da real world, doesn't mean it's right for gubment to get involved in all that mess.

Well if that's what it takes for "the greatest race track in the world" to make it, then you and I will always be on a different page. Where is all the technology, competition and innovation at?

That blew away a while ago it appears, but like I said keep going with your empty grandstands and tv programs that get outdrawn by get rich quick real estate infomercials.

[mountainstar]

Here is another little blow to all these breathless body kit manufacturers no doubt lining up 10 deep to build front wings:

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...nt-car-drivers

You gotta pay a $200K tax to the "technical committee".

Again they are stacking the cards against anyone except maybe ganassi or penske to built a body kit.

[marcostraz]

I don't think that team owners are not more important than the fans...I think that both are important...the problem is this: "if Ganassi and Penske don't like the rules, both have NASCAR operations"...we really want to see some teams go away? We want to see a scenario like 1996? We want to see Jimmy kite against Dan Drinan? Or PDM against Arizona Motorsports) (with all due respect to the work of these teams? I think no...I think (I said that before) it is better to have a compromise...some good rules fors fans nad some good rules for team owners...always hoping that they can be good for both...I hope too to see more tv ratings, more fans, more money, but I don't think that these results can be achieved by making team owners run away...Were we enjoyed to see the first year of IRL? I think nobody can say yes...I think that this new rules give to anyone who wants the possibility to make some techincal innovation (in aero kit and in engine)...not so much like some people wanted, but better than in the current situation...let's go to see what happens...

[Tim Northcutt]

Well...I have no problem with governments offering incentives to entice businesses to build there, employing a workforce that will spend money in other parts of the state economy and pay taxes, etc...

I'd rather have the government do that than regulate and restrict businesses like their doing now...

As for the "costs" to do this, I've sent some e-mails to an acquaintance who had experience in both building and designing a new chassis like an IndyCar, plus working on a project that involved creating "aero kits' for an existing chassis to find out a good, reasonable "ballpark figure" on what the capital outlay would be to do this.

I'll post you on what he says...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Here is another little blow to all these breathless body kit manufacturers no doubt lining up 10 deep to build front wings:

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...nt-car-drivers

You gotta pay a $200K tax to the "technical committee".

Again they are stacking the cards against anyone except maybe ganassi or penske to built a body kit.

Plus engine companies will pay a $1 million fee per season. Doesn't sound like a good way to encourage other engine suppliers

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Team Owners are not more important than the fans! Are you saying you feel sorry to any stick and ball owner that pays a player millions of dollars? He's all of a sudden not going to be able feed his family or not pay the bills? That's ridiculous!

Honestly, if say Ganassi and Penske don't like the rules (not likely I am sure by not only having the most money but also the most influence) both have NASCAR operations that are money makers, especially Penske since he's the de-facto Dodge works team.

They are making concessions that help guys less rich or diversified as they are, but in the end it doesn't benefit the fan because its not what you want. Allowing people to design their own aero packages is piecemeal, you can't see that?

How are the guys putting the product on the track are more important than the people watching it?

If Indycar got better ratings, more corporate money would flow into the series then we wouldn't have to worry about back-markers so much. In fact I can't be concerned about them, racing teams can't have it both ways.

What I mean by that -

Some feel its not fair to be critical of rich men driving their own cars in Sports Car Racing, yet throughly professional racing doesn't have that problem. But there's always a crusade to save the back-markers that are back there for one reason or another.

In both cases I'm taking the position of fan advocate, I want the best product possible if you expect me to watch it. But if you already know I will watch Lawn Mower Racing, then there isn't much incentive to be successful.

What Indycar is figuring is two things -

The base will be happy with crumbs despite the moaning online

The casual fan won't notice what's under the skin

So basically they are willing to either give you crumbs or think your some sort of idiot.

As Marshall said on his Speed TV post, he's insulted that the powers that be feel casual fans don't want to know the technical side of Motorsports.

Indycar is not NASCAR and the typical NASCAR fan will not watch Indycar. So the fan that will support Jr even if he's driving a firetruck or a clown car will still be Jr fans. In NASCAR the driver is vastly more important than what they are driving.

Indycar fans are not NASCAR fans and casual fans don't care about Indycar because there's nothing interesting about it.

But clearly from the general disappointment around the net, this decision was a mistake.

Back in the early 90's before the split there was quite a bit of demographic studies that went on and it was found although there was some cross over with some fans liking both nascar and indycar, for the most part indycar fans were a different bunch than those that were into nascar. Indycar fans were technically savvy, better educated and earned about twice as much in income than a nascar fan.

What it is now, God knows, but one thing is clear and that is the irl has tried to emulate nascar with a similar style of pack racing on ovals with everyone in the same looking machines and it has been a horrific failure in more ways than one. The nascar people want their nascar and can't be bothered with indycar.

So the other option is to go back to the demographic that powered CART and that was 25-50 year olds with higher IQ's and more stimulated by technology plus had disposable income attractive to sponsors. With the new Dullara those people are gone, never to return.

And what are you left with? Well a few people that wish things could be great again and a few people in indianapolis that still believe it's 1965 and the center of the American racing universe is indianapolis. The actual supportive "base" that you have I'd make a rough estimate that it is 10 times smaller than in 1995.

I think one thing that happened with the baby boomer generation on down to the current 18 year olds and ups is that people were no longer content to watch anymore, but wanted to do instead. Probably back in 1952 you would be in awe at what you saw at Indy. But now I think people would rather be out racing on their own with the SCCA or NASA or historics or riding motorcycles or boating or whatever then to sit on their butt at the racetrack and watch 20 identical cars circulate at the same speed. Or on the inverse you have the people that would rather be in the digital world with their PS3's and Xbox's.

Time is the bridge of no return. tony george wanted to go back to an era already passed and you can't have a redo of history the exact same way.

It's time for a new era with new people, new ideas, new technology and so on. It's not time to be stagnant and boring and clinging desperately to this idea that indy is the center of the universe.

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Back in the early 90's before the split there was quite a bit of demographic studies that went on and it was found although there was some cross over with some fans liking both nascar and indycar, for the most part indycar fans were a different bunch than those that were into nascar. Indycar fans were technically savvy, better educated and earned about twice as much in income than a nascar fan.

What it is now, God knows, but one thing is clear and that is the irl has tried to emulate nascar with a similar style of pack racing on ovals with everyone in the same looking machines and it has been a horrific failure in more ways than one. The nascar people want their nascar and can't be bothered with indycar.

So the other option is to go back to the demographic that powered CART and that was 25-50 year olds with higher IQ's and more stimulated by technology plus had disposable income attractive to sponsors. With the new Dullara those people are gone, never to return.

And what are you left with? Well a few people that wish things could be great again and a few people in indianapolis that still believe it's 1965 and the center of the American racing universe is indianapolis. The actual supportive "base" that you have I'd make a rough estimate that it is 10 times smaller than in 1995.

I think one thing that happened with the baby boomer generation on down to the current 18 year olds and ups is that people were no longer content to watch anymore, but wanted to do instead. Probably back in 1952 you would be in awe at what you saw at Indy. But now I think people would rather be out racing on their own with the SCCA or NASA or historics or riding motorcycles or boating or whatever then to sit on their butt at the racetrack and watch 20 identical cars circulate at the same speed. Or on the inverse you have the people that would rather be in the digital world with their PS3's and Xbox's.

Time is the bridge of no return. tony george wanted to go back to an era already passed and you can't have a redo of history the exact same way.

It's time for a new era with new people, new ideas, new technology and so on. It's not time to be stagnant and boring and clinging desperately to this idea that indy is the center of the universe.

I can't agree fast enough! History is history - the very fact that it has already happened means it can never happen again.

These reasons are why I'm for radicalism in all of motor-sports. You must make progress to grow. Anything less, even remaining exactly the same, will cause degeneration. Thats my view on it.

[JagtechOhio]

"Time is the bridge of no return."

If that's an original line, it is one hell of a keeper. Seriously.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

"Time is the bridge of no return."

If that's an original line, it is one hell of a keeper. Seriously.

Here, here...

I support a good product on the track. You can't do it by using the previous model as your guide, that's a FAILED MODEL on all accounts. I don't understand why there was an appeasement of the oval purist (seemingly all based in Indianapolis) and divide the Championship.

Why, I thought we were embracing diversity?

So this whole thing is flawed, why separate but equal? Where's MLK when you need him...

The CART/CCWS faction is MUCH LARGER than the IRL Oval Centrist faction, that is very clear by the changes in the schedule.

They should be pushing in that direction. In that sense, its not about embracing history its embracing something that works! IRL in of itself did not work, I never watched it when it was an Oval only series (too much like NASCAR) and a bunch of Class B or C or WORST drivers.

When many of the CART regulars made the jump, the overall talent level went WAY up witnessed by the victories/domination.

We wanted to see multiple chassis and engines because with limited testing somebody like one of the mid-pack teams could made the correct call and do well. The better teams would either engineer themselves out of the hole or like the biggest teams always did, buy that combination as well. But they would be a season or so behind in development, it made the racing better.

Wow competition!

Now whenever the ovals come up, we already know who's going to run up front, the true surprise has been how well Sato has run on ovals thus far, that's one positive this season to build on.

As I said on all accounts the changes thus far aren't good or positive and will not change the direction of this series going forward, that's just honest opinion and its shared from what I can tell by a majority of the fanbase and even a few drivers.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Plus engine companies will pay a $1 million fee per season. Doesn't sound like a good way to encourage other engine suppliers

Agreed especially when they have to build a special engine that has no direct relation to the production engine. The AER Mazda MZR is the same block (now with more metal for a beefer webbing), head and Direct Fuel Injection as the engine found in the Mazdaspeed 3. If Indycar doesn't allow this engine, they are stupider than I thought.

Ford could use its "Eco-Boost" tag line for its line of Indycar engines but Ford will not burn up millions developing their own engines. They do not own Cosworth anymore. This is why its important not to make the chassis in such a way that it won't support production based engines that are not stressed members.

Lola is much better equipped to do this based on the fact that the B06/10 chassis has the following engines -

Judd V10 (Drayson, Rebellion)
Mazda Turbo Production based 4 cylinder (Dyson)
Aston Martin Production based V12 (AMR)
HPD Honda Racing V8 (RML)

The Million Dollar Tag isn't that big a deal actually because its just so Indy Car has some cash on hand and in return Ford can use Indycar logos and other media and vise-versa, think of it as not only supplying engines but partnering with the series.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

"Time is the bridge of no return."

If that's an original line, it is one hell of a keeper. Seriously.

Yeah I came up with that, I must have been on some of tony george's previous products and had a vision.

Basically when I wrote that I was visualizing moving forward in time and as you do the bridge behind you crumbles and you can't go back no matter how hard you try.

But I think what we can do is look at history and see what worked and what didn't work. There is plenty of open wheel history to look through.

What always made CART/Indycar racing interesting was the innovation and the competition with a bit of new technology here and there. And since 1911 that is what built Indy as well, despite some stagnant periods for a couple of years here and there.

With the turd that the irl laid on the stage the other day with their vague hologram, there is no new technology or innovation, no great competition or challenge. Nothing at all either with a big noise or drama or horsepower to make peoples jaws drop.

I am of firm belief that there are many great engineers out there that could have concocted some rules that opened things up a bit and made it a challenge and exciting for the fans while maintaining some level of safety.

I think that's why we stopped going to the Moon, the challenge was conquered, people saw what they needed to see and we moved on(at least for now). Same with indycar and indy. Car manufacturers, sponsors, fans, have all mostly moved on, except for a few hold outs. The challenge and excitement is gone and with these new rules none of those people are coming back.

People will say, well everyone and their brother wants to make body kits for the Dullara and there is your innovation. Well I think if indycar felt that to be true, they would not have imposed a $200K graft/tax/payoff to indycar nor made the rules as such the kits could not be evaluated in a reasonable manner, nor pulled some $1.5 million dollar figure out of their messy behind to restrict R&D costs. Look beyond the BS.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

As has been said before, Dalara will only supply the basic chassis for the car, theres nothing stopping Lola and Swift making their own customer bodykits is there?

Cost, i.e R&D, testing, manufacturing plus a $200K license fee for the privilege.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Cost, i.e R&D, testing, manufacturing plus a $200K license fee for the privilege.

Much of this stuff makes no sense at all. If Indycar just wanted to make sure it had operating capital they should have just ASKED!

I predict somebody will try to make their own aero kits for these things, but they will not the traditional places where you find such stuff. Wirth is an excellent example, only uses computer modeling, no wind tunnels, works with a fixed set of suppliers. If they can do a complete car in CFD (ARX-02) and an F1 car in CFD, then doing aero work on Indycars is no problem.

But will it make sense cost wise? I'm not so sure.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

looking at the track record, I guess we can expect the IRL use the same Dallara chassis from 2012 until 2022.

yippee.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Much of this stuff makes no sense at all. If Indycar just wanted to make sure it had operating capital they should have just ASKED!

I predict somebody will try to make their own aero kits for these things, but they will not the traditional places where you find such stuff. Wirth is an excellent example, only uses computer modeling, no wind tunnels, works with a fixed set of suppliers. If they can do a complete car in CFD (ARX-02) and an F1 car in CFD, then doing aero work on Indycars is no problem.

But will it make sense cost wise? I'm not so sure.

The catch there is, both those cars were pretty ****.

[nickyf1]

In all fairness, the ARX-01 is a pretty good car

Oh, hang on, its an Oreca... damn..

[Canada ALMS fan]

Apparently Fernandes from Lotus is looking at a return to IndyCar in 2012 with an aero kit. I would assume an engine would also happen if that was the case, perhaps a re-badged Cosworth?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Apparently Fernandes from Lotus is looking at a return to IndyCar in 2012 with an aero kit. I would assume an engine would also happen if that was the case, perhaps a re-badged Cosworth?

Obviously very early days but I wonder who's doing the aero packet?

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Obviously very early days but I wonder who's doing the aero packet?

in house perhaps???
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/...-empire-grows/

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

in house perhaps???
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/...-empire-grows/

Thanks for that. As we know Kevin Kalkhoven owns Cosworth along with Gerald Forsythe.

[JagtechOhio]

One thing that the Lotus/ KV collaboration did promise was a two-car team. When that comes to pass, perhaps the signs of a more comprehensive program will be evident.