Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by climb

Hardly fair on this point; BTW this seemed far more evident about the DW option, whereas the Dallara one could give these supposed "certain people" nothing more than others could IMHO

The basic reason is the Dallara-IRL partnership has worked well for 15 yrs, there was no intelligent reason to try a jump in the dark.

I don't think it has worked that well; it's always been underfunded and during the last thee years or so audiances have dwindled, tv coverage is poor and as for the car itself, it was designed to run on ovals, but there's been no development on it for years or an attempt to improve its performance on road/street circuits.

[JagtechOhio]

You're a gent, Ice. I'm just a squatter here, whatever gents decide is fine by me.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by icemachine

I'd say now that the new chassis has been selected, it would be best to lock up the old thread, providing Jag doesn't object

I would just merge them into one, since both have good debate and info.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Robin Miller's column this week has some items pertaining to the chassis strategy choices, plus some other OW stuff.

FWIW

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...wheel-musings/

Quote:

"• If I hear one more person say the Dallara/Honda was preordained and orchestrated by Brian Barnhart months ago, I will start listening to Mike King’s play-by-play. Do you really think Tony Cotman, Tony Purnell, Gil de Ferran, Neil Ressler and Rick Long made their decision because TGBB persuaded them?"

Yes.

Rubbin gives up the answer in the next paragraph, unwittingly apparently:

"• What people don’t seem to grasp is that Lola and Swift wanted exclusivity, BAT had no visible means of financing and the Delta Wing’s future was contingent on money from the state of Indiana. Lola agreed to put up a parts house in Indianapolis and Swift was going to partner with Mark 1 Components for parts but Dallara was also the only manufacturer willing to build the cars in Speedway. "

All this was known months ago, hence the decision was taken months ago and clearly from what is said here, didn't have one diddly thing to do with the cars or their technical specs, but simply how large a kickback the speedway/indycar/barnyard/hulmangeorges AND the town of speedway would get.



In fact I'll add the MORONIC committee was just a dog and pony distraction show and to make everyone think this was a carefully and well examined decision. It wasn't.

[dj4monie]

Tune in live to hear their excuse - http://www.radiolemans.com/

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

In fact I'll add the MORONIC committee was just a dog and pony distraction show and to make everyone think this was a carefully and well examined decision. It wasn't.

Spot on.
If I didn't already know better I would suggest the other chassis manufacturers get together and start their own series... One thing is for sure, this series will never return to the greatness of CART era now.
BTW, anyone see the prices they're asking for the Edmonton Indy? For a spec series? I vowed I would not go to another race until the Dallara was gone, and the series was high tech again, which I why was so hopeful for the announcements on the 14th . Sadly, now I fear that may never happen.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

In fact I'll add the MORONIC committee was just a dog and pony distraction show and to make everyone think this was a carefully and well examined decision. It wasn't.

That's what they call a 'stitch up job' in England.

They may very well rue the day.

[JagtechOhio]

I put the question to Bernard on the radio broadcast last Saturday, and he stumbled through a canned response which avoided the issue about why Dallara was selected... and when. He and the host tried to ridicule the issues.

Robin Miller's first response was an attempt at the same kind of damage control...he is in Bernard's pocket, and now fills the public role of informal IRL mouthpiece that was formerly Cavin's job.

Star, you are absolutely right about what Miller wrote: I laughed out loud when I read the second statement, which proved the first one was false.

The next point of public debate is going to be the question that is asked by the kid who got his hand caught in the jar full of cookies..."Why does it really matter, anyway?"

Why it matters is that business at 16th and Georgetown is being conducted with the same lack of strategy and skill that they have been perfecting for years.

In an attempt to demonstrate the steps they are trying to take to move forward, they continually shoot themselves in the foot. Angstadt and Barnhart are famous for this, and then have to fall into the pattern of reciting canned answers to excuse the lack of results. The truth gets pushed off the table in hopes that no one will really notice.

Why it matters is that potential corporate partners, sponsors, and fans get to watch the failed efforts play out in full color. Precious little than empty promises are delivered, delayed, and dismissed.

Team owners don't make these kinds of mistakes: you never hear of major announcements from their ranks until a deal is signed. Then all the rumor geeks are pleasantly surprised and say "Gee, we didn't see that one coming". And the rumor geeks thus never hear about the plans made by teams which don't come to fruition, either. That's good business.

The IRL set the public stage up two years for the new engine and new chassis debate. They stumbled through promises and excuses for the lack of progress. Privately, Dallara and Honda had no problem submitting their answers since they both have maintained an advantageous relationship with the IRL and saw no problem in continuing to play.

In February, anyone else who wanted to stake a claim tried to jump onto this public stage. The situation behind closed doors was well known, but nobody talked about it. So Swift, Lola, and BAT all jumped in to muster public support to try for some leverage. Bowlby had started months before, and Ganassi jumped in full force with a speech last January in Pittsburgh. Baretzky of Audi had been beating his drum for anyone who would listen to the sound of a Global Racing Engine that didn't exist.

Bruce Ashmore knew what the score was, everybody did, and Ashmore told me. The Honda deal for the V6 was on the table awaiting a signature. Ashmore designed his chassis around it. I told him what I had read about the Dallara meetings and the working plan to establish the Indy factory, and he knew a lot more about this...the central issue to the process...than I did. Good business man.

Swift played every media card they could dream up to build public support. Lola played along to some extent. Ashmore knew that the decision had nothing to do with the public, and kept on task. Everyone worked to establish connections in Indy, to counter the incentives which Dallara had promised to IMS and the IRL.

Nobody worked these angles harder than Bowlby: he wrote his own specs, selected his own engine formula, made his own public pitch and tried to establish the benefits his program could bring to Speedway.

Ganassi mustered support among the team owners, and they tried to use Firestone's stage in Chicago as their own. That was to be the public stage which forced the IRL to accept all of their plans, or watch Delta start their own show. "The Pennsyvania Tunnel Racing League", I called it.

"You're too late" is what Delta said to everybody else. They said it to the IRL too, who was there in full force for the unveiling in Chicago. Bernard was there, and he hadn't even started his job yet.

Then the cover came off. DOA. Barnes (Panther Racing) started shooting his mouth off, and a few owners mumbled some tacit words of support. Pruett and Miller waved the flag for them in the press, since they were still in the pocket of team ownership and had yet to be romanced by the new sherrif.

For the most part, team owners kept their mouths shut. They still have. Wiggins at HVM acknowledged that everything I wrote about the over-estimation of cost savings was true, the open sourcing of race car components was problematic, the technological concepts behind the Delta were unproven.

Bowlby continued his losing crusade. It died when he couldn't receive public grant money which had been privately put on the table, and was there for the taking by IMS, the IRL, and Dallara.

Did anyone else have a shot at winning the contest? Delta did, and if their design would have received public acceptance, the stage and the whole freaking show would be theirs right now. Everybody was begging for the race car they has promised, some of us here included. They didn't deliver a race car.

Played out in public, as this whole process has developed, even Curt Cavin saw the eventual result. "Somebody's feelings are going to get hurt", he said many times over the last six months.

Swift rallied a fan base with their cordiality and cartoons. They got hurt when I started asking them some hard questions about their constantly changing design philosophies, and about Mark One composites in Indy...the local manufacturing partner they trumpeted, which is basically nothing more than a high tech body shop.

Now all of the Swift fans got hurt, since the sales pitch was a lot more effective than the focus of the effort. Lola is a race car builder, they did what they do best: presented workable and innovative ideas, built and tested a wind tunnel model, and got ready to make some race cars.

But neither Lola, or anybody else at the table, could promise what Dallara did. Of course Dallara's established relationship with the IRL was a major factor: Dallara does good business. And they were best postured to do a lot more...for themselves, the IRL, IMS, the State of Indiana, and the residents of Speedway.

Everybody else had a chance, and couldn't compete with them. There was no fix, conspiracy, kickbacks, subterfuge... just good business. It was done behind closed doors, just like it should be. And it concluded a long time before July 14. Honda handled their business exactly the same way.

If you want links to prove anything I just wrote off the top of my head, go back to December and start reading. Every one of these dominoes was lined up in real time, most of them in the "Interesting new chassis" thread. That didn't happen because I am an insider, I just look for facts instead of watching cartoons.

For all the people watching cartoons,"You're too late". The same can be said of any hope that the IRL, and their new boss Randy Bernard, have at establishing any public credibility.

Today, they are busy with damage control. Robin Miller is busy writing spin. Fans are beginning to ask the real questions, six months too late. A few are still drinking the Kool Aid, and attacking anyone who continues to ask the tough questions about what in hell this outfit plans to do to survive and keep our racing alive.

And today, long-time IRL Vice President of Marketing John Lewis jumped ship. Today, a report was floated that Terry Angstadt declared the death of IRL racing at Watkins Glen International. Today, a former team and IRL employee launched a personal vendetta to accuse Penske Racing of using illegal equipment, and paying bribes to continue the privilege.

For all of us fans that want our racing to survive, we can see the results. The remainder of this season is intact, and we might be fortunate enough to see some more of the very good entertainment the races have delivered this year.

The race cars were never the problem, although improving them to add variables to the competition will only help. Specific suggestions for these improvements were ignored.

And the race cars are the only decisive step taken to determine the future of the IRL...by banning them after 2011, that is.

Everything else is the problem, not the Dallara/ Honda. Failed promises. No coherent of effective promotional strategy. Mis-identification of target consumers. Suicidal broadcasting agreements. Compressed time schedules to build race cars which have not yet been designed. Scrambling to retain or establish venues for future shows. Attempts at securing corporate investors, when they all have watched the failures played out on the biggest public stage that the IRL could manage to assemble.

People who do good business do not do things this way. People who do things this way go out of business.

[climb]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't think it has worked that well; it's always been underfunded and during the last thee years or so audiances have dwindled, tv coverage is poor and as for the car itself, it was designed to run on ovals, but there's been no development on it for years or an attempt to improve its performance on road/street circuits.

By Partnership I just meant the design and manufacturing of racing cars; they've proved fast, safe, and the spare parts have always been available.

The issues about TV coverage and rates, development of the car, are not related to the car provider being Dallara or anyone else.
The management of IRl if the last years has beenn discussed here thousands of times and it's a bit off-topic here

[JagtechOhio]

If it's your job to monitor what somebody has to say here, then I'll make it my job to call you an ahole for doing so.

Keep climbing.

Then jump.

[climb]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

If it's your job to monitor what somebody has to say here, ...

Oh no, my dear! that's definitely your job, and I have no intention to steal it!

Of course you have any right to post what you like, as well as I have any right to say that, IMHO, it's a bit off topic, haven't I?

[Mr Pink]

This is so sad.

I'm a bit to young to remember the glory days but since watching Kenny Bräck AOW racing has really fascinated me.

There is so much potential, just look at the current driver/team list which I think is well over the standard of the series it self (with a few exceptions). With this decision I think IRL has done what seems to be the standard for most racing these days, work to lower the cost (at all cost) and break the fall as much as possible instead of creating something special that has the potential to actually grow.

If the men in charge would have had some balls they would have opened up for variety in both chassi and engine production without stupid charges, and as a worst case scenario gone out with a boom!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by climb

By Partnership I just meant the design and manufacturing of racing cars; they've proved fast, safe, and the spare parts have always been available.

I certainly agree with you there, they are safe, e.g. Mike Conway's accident at Indy this year and they are fast on ovals, for which they were designed.

Originally Posted by climb

The issues about TV coverage and rates, development of the car, are not related to the car provider being Dallara or anyone else.The management of IRl if the last years has beenn discussed here thousands of times and it's a bit off-topic here

I would have thought development of the car is directly related to Dallara, as they are the manufacturer and some criticism has been levied at them for no development work on a 7 year old chassis. As for dwindling TV coverage etc., that is symptomatic of the spec nature of IndyCar racing. Since the Dallara/Honda spec was chosen as the oficial package of the IRL, it's gone down hill.

I wasn't talking about the management of the IRL per se but in relation to the chassis/engine package and actually I think the mangement of the IRL is very relevant to this topic considering they chose the Dallara/Honda package MkI and now that the Dallara/Honda package MkII has now been chosen.

[JagtechOhio]

Hey Mr. Pink, may I ask you for a favor?

How about ringing up Olsberg Motorsport Evolution in Sweden?

I'd love to know if they sell full race versions of their 2.0L Ford Duratec turbo engines, and what the cost is. And it would be great to learn whether their engine is built on a stock block, or is built on a custom engine block casting instead.

Thanks!

[Mr Pink]

I sent Andreas Eriksson an email with the questions.

Meanwhile here are the specs for the rallycross engine:

Engine: Ford Duratec HE 2030cc Olsbergs MD Design. Four cylinders, 16 valves. Carillo conrods, JE-pistons, ARP-bolts. Camshaft Ultra Motors. Olsbergs MD head. PWR intercooler. KN Air filter. Stainless steel pipe with HJS-catalysator. OMSE/Ultra Motors manifold.
Power: 550 bhp at 6400 rpm.
Torque: 820 Nm at 4000 rpm.

At Pikes Peak they produced over 800hp..

[JagtechOhio]

Mr. Pink,

You are the man! Thank you!

If you have an email address and I can converse with Mr. Eriksson in English, please send me a private message.

I spoke with Brent Maurer at Ford Racing about the Olsberg engines early this year, as he was listed as their U.S. contact. Cordial, but not helpful or interested.

Thank you for being all three.

That's one of the engines, run at reduced boost and RPM to 575 HP output, that would be very interesting to test for durability and fuel consumption rate at WOT.

[climb]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

...
I would have thought development of the car is directly related to Dallara, as they are the manufacturer and some criticism has been levied at them for no development work on a 7 year old chassis.

From what i know, It was IRL who decided to block development, since Panoz have left, for the beknown reason of cost cutting

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by climb

From what i know, It was IRL who decided to block development, since Panoz have left, for the beknown reason of cost cutting

If it was the IRL's decision it was the wrong one. Of course costs need to be kept down but motorsport is about techonolgy evolving and pushing the barriers, not letting the technology stagnate, which is what happened and why there was a call for a new chassis/engine.

[Tim Northcutt]

I've merged this with "It's The Dallara!" Thread, per your request

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

I've merged this with "It's The Dallara!" Thread, per your request

Thanks alot.

[Mr Pink]

Jag,

There's a few different people you could try here: http://teamrs.aeston.no/?vis=artikke...7865&t=Contact

Most swedes speak/write at least decent english so I think it wouldn't be much of a problem.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

And one for you as well.

dj, the point is about selling to new customers. Trying to squeeze a living out of "low-hanging fruit" doesn't sell any Guinness, or even kool aid.

Prune juice, maybe. Cheers.

True, if you mean we're the "low hanging fruit" -

But casual fans will find it interesting when we're excited about it!

There is nothing to be excited about, its the same old shhh with different clothes. As I aid elsewhere they threw away any chance at momentum, 2011 is all of a sudden almost meaningless.

[JagtechOhio]

Agreed.

The "low-hanging fruit" is what Randy Bernard labelled the audience who used to watch back in the day, but don't now. He thinks 15-20 million ex-CART and IRL fans are out there, anxious for their chance to rejoin the new glory days.

Prolly everybody here is still "hard core", and we're above the fruit level. I still thought it was a dramatically stupid way to talk about your potential customers, regardless of how many there aren't.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Agreed.

The "low-hanging fruit" is what Randy Bernard labelled the audience who used to watch back in the day, but don't now. He thinks 15-20 million ex-CART and IRL fans are out there, anxious for their chance to rejoin the new glory days.

Prolly everybody here is still "hard core", and we're above the fruit level. I still thought it was a dramatically stupid way to talk about your potential customers, regardless of how many there aren't.

If he wanted the 15-20 million fans to rejoin the new glory days, he should have used the CART model that created them in the first place and not this half-baked one.

[Mr Pink]

Jag.

Here's the reply I got from Andreas Eriksson:

We sell race ready engines

We've been building on standrad blocks but heavily modified and with our own top for increased cylinderpressure and better cooling at high power output.

At the moment we're building a new block to lower cost and get better qualities.

All engines have the same base:

RC 45 mm restrictor ca 550 hp 850 nm

PP no restrictor ca 850 hp 1100 nm

Rally America 34 mm restrictor 320 hp 780 nm

Cost around 600000-750000 sek (ca 80000-100000 usd) incl. everything ready to start, in car! New model block should reduce the cost but isn't ready yet.

Running the engine is at reasonable price since everything, such as crankshaft, block, top, is built for re-use after renovation.

Best Regards,

Andreas Eriksson

(There might be a couple of miss translations since I translated it all myself)