Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[JagtechOhio]

It's not worth the arguments. The ICONIC panel was assembled to review the chassis submissions.

'It was about discovering alternatives for moving indycar forward and really nothing came of that.'

That notion is a fantasy. When no competing engine manufacturer stepped up after 2 years of discussion....and all of the constructor proposals ruled out the affordability of competing chassis....there wasn't a lot to decide.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Dallara have started work on the 2012 safety cell:

http://www.racer.com/dallara-begins-...rticle/189781/

[gttouring]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

It's not worth the arguments. The ICONIC panel was assembled to review the chassis submissions.

'It was about discovering alternatives for moving indycar forward and really nothing came of that.'

That notion is a fantasy. When no competing engine manufacturer stepped up after 2 years of discussion....and all of the constructor proposals ruled out the affordability of competing chassis....there wasn't a lot to decide.

This was their failing- why do they think it must be only Manufacturer involvement for good racing and a series which drums up interest?
USAC has very healthy grids and many engine are built by shops and local guys, even NASCAR has a similar set up. these have no real shortage of fans or sponsor money.
This is would be THE failing of ICONIC jerks for missing out on that, any engine can be made to run indy, making it available would be the key to making it interesting.
Imagine Dave's Engine Works Indy Special 5.0 DOHC V8 or V12, besting a works 2.0turbo VW/Audi or a 2.4Turbo Honda.
the USA and Canada love an underdog winning- this would make headlines, and be awesome to see, hear, and watch race. this is INDY after all, WTF is wrong with these guys seeing the obvious?
oh the 'fear' Chevy will come in and drop a nascar V8 in the back of a dallara? that's racing... we have restrictors for the "too powerful" instead of weight (which is dangerous as a reward) so take a MM of diameter from the intake from every win or something- big whoop-
or better yet don't if there are no manufacturer engines- it will be the best any shop can build.
I don't get it and this ICONIC committee has made me feel sour on INDY for being such putzes...

[JagtechOhio]

gt, that's the whole point in a nutshell. It's all about the money.

Honda gives IndyCar a steady supply of reliable engines and promotional investment. At a minimum, that's a $20M annual program operated for the benefit of the brand equity it gets in return.

One guy with one engine shows up to beat them, and what did they get for their money? Embarrased, that's about all.

That's why a competing engine builder will have to be capable of supplying at least half of the field, and paying a fat participation fee to boot. Which is why it will take factory support, as Cosworth has stated.

[gttouring]

So Indy has shot itself in the foot, for a short sighted goal of year by year management?
participation fees are horribly arrogant for Indy car to expect-
as noted before 300K viewers is hardly anything to ask money for.
The weakness of the iconic panel to bow to one idea instead of looking at the health and legacy of the series is unforgivable- and track sanction fees are appalling.
Yes everyone needs to make money- however, making money this year can likely be gained by doubling ticket sales and making it all more affordable and oh i don't know exciting maybe? bunch of Jack wagons.
the tracks pay a fee the teams pay a fee, and the manufacturer pays a fee all for what to make a show the fans pay a fee to watch, this is not sound business model for sustainability of a racing series really. It isn't F1 and doesn't need to be- it isn't nascar and doesn't need to be, it can be better than all of them, I will honestly say The IRL honchos have no vision or gumption to make Indy what it can be.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gttouring

So Indy has shot itself in the foot, for a short sighted goal of year by year management?
participation fees are horribly arrogant for Indy car to expect-
as noted before 300K viewers is hardly anything to ask money for.
The weakness of the iconic panel to bow to one idea instead of looking at the health and legacy of the series is unforgivable- and track sanction fees are appalling.
Yes everyone needs to make money- however, making money this year can likely be gained by doubling ticket sales and making it all more affordable and oh i don't know exciting maybe? bunch of Jack wagons.
the tracks pay a fee the teams pay a fee, and the manufacturer pays a fee all for what to make a show the fans pay a fee to watch, this is not sound business model for sustainability of a racing series really. It isn't F1 and doesn't need to be- it isn't nascar and doesn't need to be, it can be better than all of them, I will honestly say The IRL honchos have no vision or gumption to make Indy what it can be.

There's here much that I agree with. No it doesn't have to be F1 or NASCAR but the IRL, or what ever it calls itself these days, should look at those two series as potential business models, particularly F1, considering it is an open wheel series. Though I hate say it, there's a lot they could learn from Bernie.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by gttouring

So Indy has shot itself in the foot, for a short sighted goal of year by year management?
participation fees are horribly arrogant for Indy car to expect-
as noted before 300K viewers is hardly anything to ask money for.
The weakness of the iconic panel to bow to one idea instead of looking at the health and legacy of the series is unforgivable- and track sanction fees are appalling.
Yes everyone needs to make money- however, making money this year can likely be gained by doubling ticket sales and making it all more affordable and oh i don't know exciting maybe? bunch of Jack wagons.
the tracks pay a fee the teams pay a fee, and the manufacturer pays a fee all for what to make a show the fans pay a fee to watch, this is not sound business model for sustainability of a racing series really. It isn't F1 and doesn't need to be- it isn't nascar and doesn't need to be, it can be better than all of them, I will honestly say The IRL honchos have no vision or gumption to make Indy what it can be.

They have effectively let Honda gain monopoly power in the series, and now they are letting them erect further barriers to entry.
Now we effectively have a one make open wheeler series Formula Honda!

On a separate note, if tube frame chassis are so useless let them run 30 kgs lighter and see if anyone is prepared to take the bait. You will never be able to package a tube layout as compactly as a carbon tub, but giving them a weight advantage may be sufficient to open the field, also they would not be limited to one manufacturer.

[ptclaus98]

Yeah, think of the glory the tubeframers will have when they have a driver go into a wall at 205 and come out the other side as a grease spot.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

They have effectively let Honda gain monopoly power in the series, and now they are letting them erect further barriers to entry.
Now we effectively have a one make open wheeler series Formula Honda!

With add on aero bits.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Yeah, think of the glory the tubeframers will have when they have a driver go into a wall at 205 and come out the other side as a grease spot.

With proper design they will stand up just fine. Not talking Colin Chapman explode on impact theory here.
Submit them to crash tests, if they fail they don't get to race, simple.

CART and the INDY of old were successful because they presented variety and close racing. Now the manufacturers are trying to buy succcess by capturing the series completely, and few are interested in the result.
What happens when Honda decide the investment is no longer worth it and pull the plug?

F1 at least has more than one string to its bow, with multiple manufacturers and engine suppliers and Cosworth who they brought to the table as a backup position. Even formula ford has at least multiple chassis manufacturers.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

With proper design they will stand up just fine. Not talking Colin Chapman explode on impact theory here.
Submit them to crash tests, if they fail they don't get to race, simple.

CART and the INDY of old were successful because they presented variety and close racing. Now the manufacturers are trying to buy succcess by capturing the series completely, and few are interested in the result.
What happens when Honda decide the investment is no longer worth it and pull the plug?

F1 at least has more than one string to its bow, with multiple manufacturers and engine suppliers and Cosworth who they brought to the table as a backup position. Even formula ford has at least multiple chassis manufacturers.

I can't disagree with any of that. I think sponsorship has to be added to the mix.

Looking at F1, Ferrari and Shell are an excellent example of how two distinctive brands use F1 as a vehicle to promote themselves. Yet there's not much distinction if someone like Shell is sponsoring one of the many teams running Dallara chassis, there is no brand association or brand exclusivity and F1 has always thrived on that and to a certain the same can be said of USAC/CART.

Teams like Marlboro Penske, Marlboro McLaren, JPS Lotus, Elf Tyrrell, continue to still hold sway because of brand association.

[bjohnsonsmith]

My browser crashed before I could amend my post:

Teams like Marlboro Penske, Marlboro McLaren, JPS Lotus, Elf Tyrrell, will endure in the annals of racing history because of brand association; it's excellent marketing.

The same can be said of race premotion; how many Honda Grand Prix of Wherever must there need to be, which goes back to Honda's capturing of the series?

C'mon America, this is the land of opportunity.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I can't disagree with any of that. I think sponsorship has to be added to the mix.

Looking at F1, Ferrari and Shell are an excellent example of how two distinctive brands use F1 as a vehicle to promote themselves. Yet there's not much distinction if someone like Shell is sponsoring one of the many teams running Dallara chassis, there is no brand association or brand exclusivity and F1 has always thrived on that and to a certain the same can be said of USAC/CART.

Teams like Marlboro Penske, Marlboro McLaren, JPS Lotus, Elf Tyrrell, continue to still hold sway because of brand association.

I see a predominant trend.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

I see a predominant trend.

You forgot Elf Tyrrell.

[gttouring]

for the same money we did have the PPG CART world series (Pennsylvania paint and glass) so while tobacco money is super and apparently never ending even in the face of lawsuits and all, we do have many more available cash companies to create power houses- like TARGET Ganassi. (they have been at it for how long?)
it is just the trick to get them into motorsports- i understand the Walmart people (one of the waltons) actually is very into track days and endurance racing so a Walmart team is not unbelievable- but since it isn't made in china they seem less interested.
I would welcome the liquor companies and the Tobacco money again- their involvement only creates more work for everyone on the planet- especially in racing. No one makes me smoke and i don't- but i love marlboro colors and JPS, and Camel racing, 555, lucky strike, parliament and what have you.
but such is our current life- but Red Bull is a huge force but they are occupied it seems.
the dominant former trend doesn't seem to play into the current trend- but crappy leadership certainly does

[HJJ]

News that GM may become an engine supplier.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20101108/IRL/101109887

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...eturn-in-2012/

http://www.autoextremist.com/fumes1/

[PZippy]

If these reports are true, this could be the kick in pants that IndyCar needs. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

[gttouring]

well not a kick in the pants.
I had read they were entering but a V6? it will be the most stout option true, and perhaps they have stuff in their bag of tricks- they did run Chevy V6's before- but for the love of Pete- the last GM foray didn't really bring the Indy car races that much help- it continued to fade into obscurity.
Bu thank goodness we have major help if it is rue to keep Indy car going and fighting forward- Audi has a 3.0 liter charged motor- how hard can it be to adapt? (i know bespoke engines versus production based blah blah blah)
perhaps this will usher in more players.
I am waiting to see if any one picks up the Turbo 4 idea- Subaru would be awesome as well as Mazda if they were so bold.

Still people coming to play doesn't mean the rules are any good- i still feel the Iconic clowned this up y going spec rather than formula or more open rule set.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gttouring

I still feel the Iconic clowned this up y going spec rather than formula or more open rule set.

If costs were the issue for initially going spec they should at least made provision for the series to become more open in the future, once the series had become financially more stable and viable.

That's encouraging news about GM.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Believe it when I see it but very good news if true.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by gttouring

This was their failing- why do they think it must be only Manufacturer involvement for good racing and a series which drums up interest?
USAC has very healthy grids and many engine are built by shops and local guys, even NASCAR has a similar set up. these have no real shortage of fans or sponsor money.
This is would be THE failing of ICONIC jerks for missing out on that, any engine can be made to run indy, making it available would be the key to making it interesting.
Imagine Dave's Engine Works Indy Special 5.0 DOHC V8 or V12, besting a works 2.0turbo VW/Audi or a 2.4Turbo Honda.
the USA and Canada love an underdog winning- this would make headlines, and be awesome to see, hear, and watch race. this is INDY after all, WTF is wrong with these guys seeing the obvious?
oh the 'fear' Chevy will come in and drop a nascar V8 in the back of a dallara? that's racing... we have restrictors for the "too powerful" instead of weight (which is dangerous as a reward) so take a MM of diameter from the intake from every win or something- big whoop-
or better yet don't if there are no manufacturer engines- it will be the best any shop can build.
I don't get it and this ICONIC committee has made me feel sour on INDY for being such putzes...

The problem with that is simple, money.

You know what CART's financial results were pre-taxes?

1994: + $ 82.000,-
1995: + $ 781.000,-
1996: - $ 517.000,-
1997: - $ 20.947.000,-
1998: + $ 23.657.000,-
1999: + $ 29.723.000,-
2000: + $ 23.673.000,-
2001: - $ 1.462.000,-
2002: - $ 20.863.000,-
2003: - $ 91.925.000,-

Take away manufacturer money and you don't have much left in the best years, and huge losses in the others. Indycar has the benefit of Indy (both in terms of direct race income as tv-value) but when CART in it's heyday could only bring in $20 million after taxes when they had everything going for them it isn't hard to see that running without manufacturers is not going to make you money.

[Tim Northcutt]

I'll believe it when I see it...not until it is formally announced

[gttouring]

of course the money is the issue.
but hamstringing the rules and potential all out racing war and track battles on what might be cheaper is shortsighted
i realize there are promotional expenses and what have you, but the iconic committee was looking into rules for engine and chassis without looking into how Indy might survive without manufacturers or less involvement anyway. I wonder how profitable USAC national midgets is- or Sprints... it may not be front page stuff but if they are not losing money it might be a better start to look into alternative everything.
I use these North American based series because well Indy is here.
Ganassi has denied the rumors By the way. it is news to him and he has not been contacted and it is not part or connected to his NASCAR program.
("Chip Ganassi told AW he knew nothing of the connection. “The whole thing is news to me,” he said. “I literally know nothing. It doesn't have anything to do with our [NASCAR] deal.”
source autoweek .com)

[christcc2]

I will welcome it if GM does become a supplier.

And you are right, manufacturer money is very important.

However, if the business end of things aren't run properly by the series, it won't matter how much money they receive from the manufacturers.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I came across this link on the F1 section of 10-Tenths and there's much that pertains to IndyCar:

http://www.divergentgovernance.co.uk...Governance.pdf