USCC (leave your axe outside)

[Nick Woodbury]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Used to come daily for the gossip and rumours of future ALMS entries and Sebring and PLM grid news.

Hmph, now that you mention that, I miss those days terribly before this whole USCR merger was announced. Oh how drastically different the mood was back then. Back when the ALMS fan forum was busy with rumors nearly every week especially around silly season, Petit, and Sebring like you said.

Now a-days.........

[jeast]

Originally Posted by Nick Woodbury

Hmph, now that you mention that, I miss those days terribly before this whole USCR merger was announced. Oh how drastically different the mood was back then. Back when the ALMS fan forum was busy with rumors nearly every week especially around silly season, Petit, and Sebring like you said.

Now a-days.........

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Lanky Turtle

(...) makes me wonder if people (...not either/or but: ) are just obsessed with technical details about the cars that nobody should even care about other than the race crews.

This seems to be the deciding difference between GA and ALMS consumers. You don't give a .... about tech, then GA will happily satisfy you. As you don't seem to be a technophile (a technophile would never assume an either/or between racing and interest in tech!!!), let me tell you something from a thought world you obviously are not part of (sadly you'll have to take my word for it) : GA doesn't satisfy a technophile like me. Calling these near GT-bodied tube trucks they're racing "Prototypes" is an insult to me. And just because you race DPs and GAGTs on the same track as real cars, doesn't make it better. In fact BOPing these abominations close to real cars is yet another insult, just as this Camaro joke that obviously is allowed (and lobbied for) to win races. Best two things that USCR have going for them is the fraction of their entrants that formerly will have been known as ALMS, and access to classic north american tracks (although they seem to be able to even fck that resource up. Going to rovals? Lime Rock in doubt? Please).

I'll follow Canada ALMS fan's example now.
Before I leave though, thanks maelochs, for (one vocal guy) getting the point.

[extramundane]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

USCR found out that there was only around a 10% cross over between the mailing lists of each series.

And yet everyone who "can't stand the other series" always seems to know exactly what happened in every race.

Funny, huh?

[BullMan]

I don't understand why people just make **** up sometimes. On another forum, I have a guy telling me the new series going to go to a roval event at a track owned by Bruton Smith out of generosity from NASCAR. Who comes up with this stuff and who is stupid enough to believe it?

[pederb]

I'm trying to figure out how they can have the Porsche GT3 Cup and Porsche GT3 R cars in the same class?(GTD) The GT3 R is pretty much a full blown race car while the Cup car is more of a street car made to race.

Cheers

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by pederb

I'm trying to figure out how they can have the Porsche GT3 Cup and Porsche GT3 R cars in the same class?(GTD) The GT3 R is pretty much a full blown race car while the Cup car is more of a street car made to race.

Cheers

They won't be... Elkins already said that the GT3R won't be legal. My suspicion is that Porsche's next FIA GT3-challenger will be Cup-based anyway (think 2008 Cup-S, but better), so that'll be their GT-D car.

[pederb]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

They won't be... Elkins already said that the GT3R won't be legal. My suspicion is that Porsche's next FIA GT3-challenger will be Cup-based anyway (think 2008 Cup-S, but better), so that'll be their GT-D car.

So Porsche racers are the only one who can not buy a last years FIA GT3 Car?

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by pederb

So Porsche racers are the only one who can not buy a last years FIA GT3 Car?

The Cup car costs nearly half of what the GT3 car does.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by pederb

So Porsche racers are the only one who can not buy a last years FIA GT3 Car?

They can buy this year's GA-cars from Magnus and Park Place or unused chassis from TRG or Brumos.

[pederb]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

They can buy this year's GA-cars from Magnus and Park Place or unused chassis from TRG or Brumos.

Yes but they are not GT3 R's

[pederb]

Originally Posted by BullMan

The Cup car costs nearly half of what the GT3 car does.

So does most Cup cars, no matter the brand.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by pederb

Yes but they are not GT3 R's

Right, but they are cheaper and won't have to be slowed down...

[Accident]

Reading through all these posts about DP vs P2 makes me glad that I don't care much for either class so that I'm not worried about it.

In my opinion, USCR needs to work with the ACO on the P2 regulations for 2016 or whatever, and make sure that the 5.0L V8s are viable for the class alongside the smaller higher RPM screaming motors and turbo motors, so that we can get some roaring V8s to appeal to some American fans on the fence about P2 cars, and more importantly, add some variety to the class.

Getting the DP engines to work in a P2 chassis would help please some of the ALMS guys who want to see the ACO product on track, and keeping the DP V8s would give us an American sound and some American built engines, and possibly allow for some continued Ford vs Chevy rivalry as well as some "America vs the world" competition. And, if Riley built a P2 car, then we could potentially have an American built, American powered car competing at Le Mans as well.

Right now DP racing only interests me because I like some of the teams/drivers running in it, and P2 racing doesn't interest me at all. As long as GTE isn't changed, and the GTE racing isn't constantly screwed up by the other classes, then I will be happy.

[canamman]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

However, is it possible that we underestimate the number of fans who enjoy BOTH series? For example, even though I live in Florida and prefer the Grand-Am, I also attend Sebring and Road Atlanta every year. I have also attended ALMS and Grand-Am races at Laguna Seca, Sears Point, Portland and Barber. How would your numbers account for fans like me?

I am in that category as well. I like it all and keep up with it all.

As far as how many there are of us. I dont know. You would like to think
its a big number but I think the 80/20 rule would be close. At an ALMS race,20% of the attendees like both series and the other 80% care
for only ALMS racing and visa versa for the Rolex crowd. We will see
how it shakes out. I am a big Conti fan after seeing them at Road A
this past Spring. GT's put on a good show though I still can not
get use to a Camaro spanking the Ferraris and Porsches.

[Speed-King]

I still can not get used to a Camaro spanking the Ferraris and Porsches.

Is that really more outlandish than a BMW Z4 doing the same thing? At least the Camaro is available with an engine remotely in the same performance region.

[Maelochs]

DP already has V8s, like the Nissan which is pretty much the dominant power plant in ELMS. No reason the current V8’s shouldn’t work.

FIA said that pretty much P2 won’t be changing much in 2016 because it ain’t broke (and that is shockingly close to reason from that bunch.) If constructors are still willing to build P2 chassis, and teams with older chassis can still use them, well … that’s a healthy class, no?

I know stability and longevity was supposed to be a big DOP selling point, and I know I like regs which let teams race the chassis for at least five years (however modified and BOP’d to be grandfathered.)

The BMW 4.5 was just approved by Grand Am, and I see no reason it couldn’t take on the 4.5 Nissan (or the Audi V8 .) As far as I know, Ford has a 4.6, and probably every factory has some block which could be drilled out or sleeved down to 4.5.

I agree that having Chevy and Ford V8s fit the rules (though Ford might stick with the 3.2-3.5 Roush turbo V6 as more relevant to their production line) is a huge bonus and very much to be sought after.

There has been more variety to P2 than we see in the U.S. right now—and even now HPD isn’t the only constructor. Oreca and Morgan (Oak) still build cars, as does Lotus (Adesa) and a bunch of new P2s have been designed.

P2 never took off in the U.S. after the financial crash because ALMS never recovered from mismanagement and the financial crash, but there is more variety in P2 than in DP right now globally, and no reason there couldn’t be in USCR, if the series lets teams make money.

I agree (I think we agree) the top class of the top-tier sports car series on the continent should have something more adventurous than DPs or P2s as the top class, but for the first several years, I will be happy if USCR gets solid fields and presents good racing (not artificially close racing, but racing where teams are really allowed to race, and not allowed to bash) with a coherent TV product.

Scot Elkins said in … February maybe that USCR was going to be looking at the new P1 regs and how they worked out—if the new P1s make economic sense, the series wouldn’t have a problem letting them back in, was what he seemed to be implying.

Scott Atherton said the future class structure would be entirely decided by the market—what could be bought and raced to sell at a decent profit. I know Scott A. claims to be really a fan of the high tech, so I am sure he’d love to have P1s back.

But even if, for the first several years, the series has to be based around P2s, so long as the rules let them race and don’t let them wreck, and so long as the TV director actually presents the story of the race, not a 2:45 slot to present infomercials, I think USCR could turn out to be a decent racing series.

[BullMan]

Remember when I asked that horrible question about headlights?

Elkins was answering questions on Twitter so I asked and his reply was pretty much that yes, all cars would have their headlights on 100% of the time.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Has anyone asked Elkins about the yellow flag rules for next year?







USCR: All the politics of ACO/FIA without the stigma of cool cars.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Also, I've looked around for a copy of the most recent survey from USCR, but I can't find it. A few posters mentioned it several weeks ago. I'd take it if it's still active, but I'd like to read it regardless.

[Accident]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

DP already has V8s, like the Nissan which is pretty much the dominant power plant in ELMS. No reason the current V8’s shouldn’t work.

FIA said that pretty much P2 won’t be changing much in 2016 because it ain’t broke (and that is shockingly close to reason from that bunch.) If constructors are still willing to build P2 chassis, and teams with older chassis can still use them, well … that’s a healthy class, no?

I know stability and longevity was supposed to be a big DOP selling point, and I know I like regs which let teams race the chassis for at least five years (however modified and BOP’d to be grandfathered.)

The BMW 4.5 was just approved by Grand Am, and I see no reason it couldn’t take on the 4.5 Nissan (or the Audi V8 .) As far as I know, Ford has a 4.6, and probably every factory has some block which could be drilled out or sleeved down to 4.5.

I agree that having Chevy and Ford V8s fit the rules (though Ford might stick with the 3.2-3.5 Roush turbo V6 as more relevant to their production line) is a huge bonus and very much to be sought after.

There has been more variety to P2 than we see in the U.S. right now—and even now HPD isn’t the only constructor. Oreca and Morgan (Oak) still build cars, as does Lotus (Adesa) and a bunch of new P2s have been designed.

P2 never took off in the U.S. after the financial crash because ALMS never recovered from mismanagement and the financial crash, but there is more variety in P2 than in DP right now globally, and no reason there couldn’t be in USCR, if the series lets teams make money.

I agree (I think we agree) the top class of the top-tier sports car series on the continent should have something more adventurous than DPs or P2s as the top class, but for the first several years, I will be happy if USCR gets solid fields and presents good racing (not artificially close racing, but racing where teams are really allowed to race, and not allowed to bash) with a coherent TV product.

Scot Elkins said in … February maybe that USCR was going to be looking at the new P1 regs and how they worked out—if the new P1s make economic sense, the series wouldn’t have a problem letting them back in, was what he seemed to be implying.

Scott Atherton said the future class structure would be entirely decided by the market—what could be bought and raced to sell at a decent profit. I know Scott A. claims to be really a fan of the high tech, so I am sure he’d love to have P1s back.

But even if, for the first several years, the series has to be based around P2s, so long as the rules let them race and don’t let them wreck, and so long as the TV director actually presents the story of the race, not a 2:45 slot to present infomercials, I think USCR could turn out to be a decent racing series.

I know about the P2 cars currently running, but I just don't remember the exact limitations and don't follow the rulebook itself too closely. I agree there is more variety in P2 but on the engine front we basically have 2 high RPM V8s and then a whooshy sounding V6 turbo, so we are lacking some variety in the sound department was all I was getting at. While it is worse with only one sound right now, soon (if the Ford turbo motor comes through) DP will be the same way, with only roaring V8s and whooshy turbo motors. I'd just like to be able to hear all of them competing together.

I guess I shouldn't have said I don't care about P2, as the simple fact that they are running around a race track gives me a little bit of interest in them and they are alright looking cars (generally speaking), but rather that I just don't have any emotional attachment to any of them or the manufacturers they are associated with (badged or just powered by), none of them make me feel anything win they win/lose/break. The Lotus is probably the closest to being something I can get behind because I like the way it looks, but I also sort of resent it for the fact that it is just another branding exercise badged by the joke that Lotus has become. I also very very rarely have any emotional investment in cars with gentleman drivers, but in the USCR it wouldn't be mandatory anymore, making that a non-issue.

I think the P2 chassis is more interesting than the DPs just for the simple fact that there is more variety in looks with the P2 cars, nevermind the fact that the cars are actually different underneath the skin as well.

As for motors, isn't the P2 cap 5.0 liters right now? Admittedly I haven't followed the rulebook too closely. I remember a year or so ago during the Judd vs Nissan performance talks it was brought up that larger displacement motors available in the P2 cars were running better because of better torque and lower RPM running meant better fuel mileage.

With the 5.0 liter cap P2 currently has, and the supposed advantage going to larger displacement V8s, I wonder why there isn't a team looking into an ECR Chevy or Roush Ford motor, as they are also stock based engines, and they can obviously run for 24 hours. Perhaps price is the problem?

I just think for a top class to be viable in the US and actually gain popularity rather than just maintain the current sportscar fan base, there needs to be something for the more casual American race fans to get behind, and rumbling V8s and American manufacturers proving themselves against the world seems just like what would be needed.

I don't really see P1 coming back to the US, as we would most likely be ****ing off several privateer owners to allow some factories to swoop in and steal all the big races and probably have a field that is half the potential size of what a P2 based field could be. The ALMS guys seemed to be used to rolling over and handing Audi/Pug their biggest races of the year, but the DP guys obviously wouldn't stand for that kind of stuff, and there are too many of them to drive away.

Without P1, and if the series wants to stick to controllable costs and make sure privateers have a chance to fight while keeping ties to Le Mans, then P2 seems like the most reasonable alternative, and if P2 is chosen then it would be good if USCR worked with the ACO on the adjustment of the regs or whatever is needed to help keep some big (relatively speaking) roaring American V8s pounding around the circuits.

I'm just rambling I guess but my main point was just that I think current (and future since they aren't changing much) P2 chassis would make a suitable compromise, but that I think something should be done to retain some American presence/style in the engine department. The fact that larger displacement engines are supposed to be good for the P2 cars and that there are 2 examples from well known companies like ECR and Roush that have been proven to run for 24 hours, yet none have turned up in a P2 car leads me to question whether the rules don't favor them or what is holding them back, and whatever it is, if P2 becomes our top class, I would hope that USCR could work with the ACO to rectify it.

[Maelochs]

Pontiac used to build a DP motor, but went broke. (The Pontiac V8 in the GR.X before Pontiac (and the car became the Stevenson Camaro, I believe) went belly-up was even louder than the Mazda rotaries.)

I think Chevy decided that there wasn't enough brand identity in the Gen 2 DPs, so it came out with its "Corvette"-DP.

Both Ford ansd Chevy supply 5-liter V8s--Starworks just switched to BMW because the Ford wasn't competitive (rules, I guess.) Chevy has plenty of wins. As far as I know (too rushed to check) Roush did the Ford V8.

The current P2 limit is 4.5, but that shouldn't be a problem--either FIA (or USCR) can raise it or ... BMW's (rather Dinan Engineering's) latest is the higher-revving four-valve 4.5 V8 which did really well against the five-liters.

(Of course it did, because Rolex mandates that all engines have the same torque and power curves.)

I'm with you, though ... more different engines and engine architectures makes the series more interesting.

[David Land]

The Nissan P2 cars are V8s? Lord, those are the worst sounding V8s I have ever heard! I could have sworn they were V6s.

[chernaudi]

Actually, the LMP2 and DP engine rules are virtually the same aside from a couple of annoying details.

LMP2: 3.2 liter TC/SC V6, 5.0 V8

DP: 3.5 liter TC/SC V6, 5.0 V8

Only other major difference is how BOP is handled. In DP, the engines have to run to certain torque/HP maxes and curves, while the LMP2 engines (like all ACO spec machinery) runs sonic air restrictors.

The 4.5 BMW V8 that Ganassi and Starworks uses was chosen because of BOP; 4.5 or less liter NA engines are allowed to run a 6 speed gearbox, while those above 4.5 have to run a 5 speed. That, and a lack of BOP adjustments and probably because of Roush/Yates and Ford Racing focusing on the 3.2/3.5 Ecoboost V6 soured Peter Barron on the 5.0 Cammer. Hence, the switch to the Bimmer unit.

But the 5.0 Cammer is legal in LMP2--considering that the Nissan VK45 is almost exactly the same as Nismo's 2006-2009 Super GT engine (it runs a flatplane crank among other non-stock mods), the Ford and GM 5.0 V8s are tame by comparison with mods and are just as if not more powerful. And Ford and GM can probably get away with more mods to the engines under the ACO's regs.

It's also interestign that while the Ford 5.0 Cammer, like all Ford Modular aluminum V8s, is nearly as heavy and dimensionally as large as the 427 FE cast iron big block and is larger and heavier than the 302/351 Windsor and 335/351 Cleveland iron small blocks, the 5.0 Cammer is more compact than the Nissan VK when both are fully assembled. The Chevy LS V8 is even more so because of it's pushrod valve train.

Also, I believe that the 5.0 Chevrolet V8 had gotten a bit of a BOP advantage because of it being an OHV pushrod design. Though not to the extent of a diesel engine, OHV engines have difficulties with high RPMs, and I think that the Chevy DP engine was given some BOP help this year because of it being an OHV design. Which is fair enough based on that limitation.

But when you consider that the Ford Ecoboost V6 has turbos and DFI, and that the GM LS and the Nissan VK come with DFI on their road cars, that'll open up a can of worms potentially if some stuff, just because it's on the road cars, is legal. Even variable valve timing is legal if it's on the road going engine.

Also, the Audi V8 won't be a good racing engine. It may be compact and light weight, but it's an undersquare design, like most Audi/VW engines are because they're intended to be mounted in longitudinal FWD/Audi quattro equipped cars. That's why it was rumored that Audi was pushing for a 5.0 version of the V10 from the R8 to be a DP engine.

[jasonjessica09]

If Black Swan/Green Hornet can enter GTD at Daytona with the Mercedes SLS, then I think I will like their chances. I have four words that can back that up too: Dubai, Bathurst, Nurburgring, Spa