Audi LMP1 Discussion

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by TF110

Lol, gotta laugh at the fact theyre now complaining about an imbalance while for near a decade they were on the favorable side. They were against Toyota voicing imbalance last year because they had raced only Spa with the '13 model. Politics in racing, just a bit annoying.

Even in 2012-2013 period, the crying boy who always gets his candy is Toyota. Oil tank decreased time and time again, yet this was purposefully interpreted as "Fuel economy for performance", which was yet again, what Toyota was doing if you compare stint length of TS030.
When time comes to 2014, as a so called open reg, ACO should realize that efficiency is not about hybrid only. It's not the medicine to everything! Yet they screwed any hope of improvement of ICE simply by BoP(I don't care whether it's called EoT or XoY). Any improvement is BSFC by engine tech is BoPed once a year, for now.
As a result, I can't see any problem with the argument made by Stadler and Dr. Ullrich.

[cokata]

The rules were favoring diesels in 12-13. It can be seen by what happened to Audi after the 2012 season. The toyota was very dominant at the end of the season, and they had huge potential to improve massively next year. I remember that even the RLM guys were saying that they don't see how audi will be competitive next season and so on. The truth is that balancing petrol and diesel with anything other than a fuel formula is impossibe. Diesels have to run a very lean A/F mixture in order to get maximum efficiency, and in 2013 audi completely ignored efficiency and went for max power instead, hence the very short (for a diesel) stint length.

This also explains why this year they counterintuitively went for bigger displacement and more boost. The fuel has very little window of opportunity to mix well with air, so throwing in as much air as possible will allow you to burn more of the fuel

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Articus

The bias here is dissapointing. Audi brought diesels to Le Mans and while their was a performance advantage petrol to diesel, none of the privateer teams could compete with even petrol factory teams like Porsche, Toyota. Additionally, Audi's own competitor, Puegeot, was diesel engined.

The real time period for the inequivalence between big factory petrol and diesel entries was 2012-2013 during which Toyota still won races with their supposedly inferior petrol engines. Not "near a decade". We did not see a true display of where each technology was at until 2012 when Toyota entered

Are you supporting the current ruleset as some sort of high stakes retribution for the Audi diesel performance advantage back in 2012 against a team you happen to really like ?

They had a diesel advantage ever since it was introduced in 2006, 8 years ago. Even before that they had an advantage as a big manufacturer able to lobby rules to their favor, which probably led to them being allowed to run diesel in the first place. Aston Martin was a 'factory' petrol team, they never stood a chance against Audi or Peugeot. Pescarolo, Dome etc. no chance. Its not just Toyota. It was anyone without a diesel that was disadvantaged. The point wasnt even specifically Audi complaining, but that theres complaining in general, then complaining against those who complain!

[GasperG]

.. same diesel era can be seen in Europe's road cars, now we are seeing more and more banning diesels out of the cities, it's a trend, sad but true.

[FstrthnU]

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...41218_37545057
Randy Pobst scored an Audi R18 test drive with Motor Trend (before it goes to the Audi Museum), here's some cool tidbits

540 HP & 600 lb-ft from the engine, 228 HP + lots of lb-ft from the motor
Flywheel spins 150000 RPM
$30 million

[TF110]

600lb-ft of torque, wonder how true that is?

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TF110

600lb-ft of torque, wonder how true that is?

As in underrated? Although it is about half of the torque on the R10's V12.

[TF110]

Thats what im thinking. Maybe its accurate but seems a low. But all the teams underrate their engine output.

[chernaudi]

Audi PR claims that the '14 R18 only made about 580 lb/ft, which I think is a bit low given that the 3.7 TDI made about 650 lb/ft with .3 of a liter less capacity and 200-400 millibars less turbocharger boost. So I'd say that power and torque figures should be at least similar between both engines. Also, Audi redesigned the intake plenums for the '14 spec engine, so that should give a boost to power and torque just though the air charge having a cleaner path into the cylinder heads.

You also have to remember that the old Audi 5.5 V12 and V10 engines, and Peugeot's 5.5 V12 not only had 1.5 more liters capacity, but they also had nearly a 1000 more millibars of turbo boost.

Also $30 million? Probably not what just any "off the shelf" R18 is worth, though I'd put the figure at several million dollars for one car alone. But with this being a LM winner, I'd bet that for whatever the "normal" price of a "normal" R18, I'd add about $1 million for each hour the car raced, hence how much it's worth to Audi as a LM winner.

[TF110]

Speaking of prices, TK was given a 2013 e-tron by Audi like what they did for Dindo.

[Articus]

Meh. Given is one way to put it. As I understand these cars are basically on loan to Dindo and Tom. It's Audi property but Dindo and Tom get to choose where the car gets stored. I think Dindo has "his" in a musuem in his hometown in Italy iirc? Tom will probably put his somewhere in Denmark.

[msd76]

Still not a bad company car for his new job!

[chernaudi]

I don't think that Audi "sell" or "give" these cars so much as do like Ferrari do with a lot of their track day/"client" cars.

IE, Dindo and Tom can claim ownership, but the cars are maintained by Audi Sport, are kept under lock and key with assistance from Audi, and though Dindo and Tom may be the nominal owners, in actual practice the cars are probably still 99% the property of Audi.

Meaning as far as the cars go, Dindo and TK have basically "figurehead" ownership of the cars, meaning that their ownership is more of a lease than outright ownership, and Audi maintain most of the responsibility, up keep, and assistance for shows and such.

Also, I'd have to say that Tom's car is a replica of the LM winner--LM winners and other significant Audi racers are exhibited/stored at the Museum Mobile in Inglostadt.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by msd76

Still not a bad company car for his new job!

Fair. But if I could have any Audi from the past, I would ask for a mint condition 2001 RS4 Avant with a lifetime subscription to Audi Care . Or maybe a mint '04 RS6 sedan . Again with Audi Care. 35,000 mile timing chain intervals wait for no one...

[rich07]

Dindo has his car at his Audi dealership still does he not?

Well he used to

Btw Articus you have VERY good taste in Audis. A 2001 RS4 Avant is what every good garage needs. One day hopefully one will grace mine

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...41218_37545057
Randy Pobst scored an Audi R18 test drive with Motor Trend (before it goes to the Audi Museum), here's some cool tidbits

540 HP & 600 lb-ft from the engine, 228 HP + lots of lb-ft from the motor
Flywheel spins 150000 RPM
$30 million

Only about 800Nm as torque peak? well for me it simply doesn't exist... C6R GT1 had more than that. To me is simply unbeliaveable, also because of the larger displacement compared to 2011-2013.
I think that the diesel engine pushes not less than 1000Nm during the peak! also because doing a quick calculation, to develope 540hp@4500rpm as the article reports, are required not less than 855Nm. More than the 600lbft (813Nm) that the article reports... and we all know that diesel reaches his torque peak very early in the rpm range.

(Nm*6.28*rpm)/60 (result will be in W, so / 1000 = KW. Value in KW*1.34 = Value in hp)

(Watching the onboard telemetry, the R18 e-tron revlimit is 4500rpm)


PS Dindo Capello has the R18 TDI (the chassis that won at sebring 2012 if am not wrong or a replica of that car) in his audi dealership. Of course the real owner of the car is still audi, not Capello.

[Graham Goodwin]

Correct - Audi retains ownership - cars are placed with the drivers on "long term loan" - Both the R18 TDI (Dindo) and R18 e-tron quattro (Tom) are very much the real deal (though I believe Audi retain the race dirty LM bodywork!)

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Correct - Audi retains ownership - cars are placed with the drivers on "long term loan" - Both the R18 TDI (Dindo) and R18 e-tron quattro (Tom) are very much the real deal (though I believe Audi retain the race dirty LM bodywork!)

Do you think these cars will ever race in historics? These cars are so complex, I wonder if they'll ever be run by true privateers - although I'm sure they said that about Group C cars at the time. Either way, you won't see them being towed on the back of trailers on the way down to LM like you do with the Legends support race.

I think the only way we'll ever see it is if the manufacturers get involved in historic racing themselves.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Do you think these cars will ever race in historics? These cars are so complex, I wonder if they'll ever be run by true privateers - although I'm sure they said that about Group C cars at the time. Either way, you won't see them being towed on the back of trailers on the way down to LM like you do with the Legends support race.

I think the only way we'll ever see it is if the manufacturers get involved in historic racing themselves.

I think you've nailed it with respect to the complexity, especially where the hybrids are concerned. At the very least it would require a big step-up in support available to track staff to a level currently seen in the WEC.

[TF110]

In 5 or 10 years time, hybrid race cars will be commonplace imo. So there should be level enough safety standards, knowledge of handling hybrid cars and such in place by the time one of these may show up in a historic or classic. But Im not sure the age limit of these types of events so Im just guessing there.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Correct - Audi retains ownership - cars are placed with the drivers on "long term loan" - Both the R18 TDI (Dindo) and R18 e-tron quattro (Tom) are very much the real deal (though I believe Audi retain the race dirty LM bodywork!)

Thank you.

Does anyone have a source on that Tom will get a car?
This is quite interesting as Tom isn't directly connected with the danish importer of Audi, Skandinavisk Motor Compagni (who I work for), but also doesn't own anything himself, where it will be ideal to place it. Like Dindo got with his own store.

So he's likely to borrow it to one of the Audi dealers in Denmark, and I'm very interested if any articles would say which Audi dealer he will chose, as I think it's likely to be one very close to where I live .

[MyNameIsNigel]

Some interesting info on Audi Communication's online magazine Encounter.online.

It's especially interesting to note that Audi build the batteries of the Audi R8 e-tron themselves at the High-Voltage Battery Technical Center next to their factory. They should therefore have some reasonable expertise to integrate such technology in an LMP1 car starting from 2016.

It also looks like the electrically assisted turbocharger showcased in the RS5 TDI Concept is something that Audi are looking seriously at for the future. Would be interesting to see such a solution end up on an LMP1 car.

[TRuss]

Great article. Thanks for the link.

[chernaudi]

Question about the R18's windshields: How are the lower areas of the windshield bolted to the car? Looking at the 2013 and 2014 R18s it looks like the lower bolts go though the ventilation system. Is there an element of the tub that's glued or molded that accepts the bolts, or is that part of the ventilation system.

Also, is the ventilation system glued to the tub, or is it detachable?

Also, unrelated to my question, Toyota at 6MJ last year was significantly over the 870kg minimum weight--reportedly, in race trim, the TS040 weighed about 900kg.

Meaning while Audi were able to use ballast to meet the 870kg limit, Toyota were about 30kgs overweight (though I don't know if that's overweight+ballast or not counting ballast--I've asked just moments ago in the Toyota LMP thread).

But Toyota (and probably Porsche) basically already pulled a "Peugeot", basically using power to combat weight. It seems that Audi will have to do the same in order to become more competitive at tracks where top speed matters.

[chernaudi]

After looking at photos, I've concluded that the only thing that carried over basically unchanged from 2013 to 2014 for the R18 was the windshield wiper (aside from a cover added to the wiper blade support/attachment before Spa), to barrow from a quote about the first and second generation Peugeot 908s

I've been on a binge of looking at photos of the 2013 and 2014 cars, and they both look good in their own way, but a 2013 car with the 2014 front fenders, splitter feet on the front diffuser, and headlights would look evil, as well as the 2014 color scheme, maybe with the 2013 silver rims, or power coated black as for a showcar based on a 2013 chassis. It'd also be interesting to see if Audi could've used the 2013 and 2014 cockpit ventilation intake assemblies interchangeably, but then again, this is just my fantasy

Also, it's a benefit of HQ photos of 1024x682 or larger (most of Fourtitude's photos now are 1600x1000, and I wish that they'd update their entire gallery to that standard).

Also, if Audi are doing any testing, it's probably in private or mostly on test benches right now, because aside from a rumored Paul Ricard test before Christmas or Thanksgiving (I don't remember which), not much has been heard from Audi since the Season Finale show. Also, not directly related to Audi, the Toyota front has also been virtually silent since about that time, too.