[Team] Haas: Gene Haas of NASCAR attempting to start F1 team

[Paradise City]

Americans won't give a jot for Haas' lightning duo waddling around at the back of the pack, regardless of who sponsors them. He'd have to sign young Earnhardt or Danica Patrick to grab any consistent coverage.

He's trying to shoulder far too many actual and serious disadvantages, in order to reach for some idealistic, illusive goals, goals which aren't all they are cracked up to be in the first place.

Run as an American team in Britain and nurse some American drivers up the ladder system. That'll achieve that American identity particularly as Haas is already known as an American racing mogul in America anyway. .

[IceMan_PJN]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Americans won't give a jot for Haas' lightning duo waddling around at the back of the pack, regardless of who sponsors them. He'd have to sign young Earnhardt or Danica Patrick to grab any consistent coverage.

He's pretty much certain to be a back-marker. He doesn't seem to be going into this with any idea of what he's in for and lacking any proper respect for the challenge at hand. He was making arrogant comments about the US being the most technologically-advanced nation in the world and seeing no reason for an American team not to be competitive, but I don't see technology or lack thereof as the limitation of F1 teams. It's not as though less competitive teams are at the back because they came from Zimbabwe or Somalia and have to engineer their cars in a straw hut building them from old soda cans.

Up front, he figures he will go in with a Dallara chassis, which means he's going to be a back-marker. Dallara seams fine when you're dealing with a lower-technology series or a series like IndyCar where it's pretty much "here's exactly how to build a qualifying car, so build this." I was researching Dallara involvement in F1, and there doesn't seem to be much of a history there. Aside from more than twenty years ago, it looks to be down to HRT in 2010, and of course we know how competitive they were... or weren't. His plan seems to be to start there and learn about chassis-building, and that's something that he needs to do to really be competitive down the road, but I don't think that's something you can do in a year or two. Teams with many years of F1 experience aren't all competing at the front, so I don't see him suddenly being all that competitive in a handful of years.

As for drivers like Earnhardt or Patrick, they aren't options because they need to hold a super license to drive in F1 and they don't meet the eligibility requirements. They must be a reigning champion in a lower series like Formula 3, Formula 2, or GP2, or at least finish consistently well in these series. Additionally, American drivers are given a chance via IndyCar, so long as they finished within the top four in a championship. Earnhardt Jr. has done none of these and DP hasn't finished better than fifth in IRL. The best American option I can find that meets these criteria is Ryan Hunter-Reay, but most American race fans won't know who he is because he isn't driving in NASCAR and doesn't look mildly-attractive in a bikini.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by IceMan_PJN

Up front, he figures he will go in with a Dallara chassis, which means he's going to be a back-marker.

My impression is that someone like Dallara is just the entry into the sport. Both to meet a deadline and to also give the team experience. I don't think Haas expect the Dallara based car to take them to the front. Now the ability for them to design their own winning car after they have moved beyond the Dallara car is still an open question.

Regarding Earnhardt Jr. and Danica Patrick. I don't disagree with your arguments. I also think that neither are realistic options for a number of other reasons. First of which is that I am of the opinion that both have likely already peaked and are likely on the downslope of their careers. Even at their peaks, they wouldn't have been viable IMHO.

Richard

[Hendrix]

I took everything Gene said with a grain of salt as it sounded like typical PR talk. I do think it's a tad unfair to write him off as a failure already though considering we don't know anything about the personnel behind the team.

I also don't think Earnhardt Jr. would be a fit even at his peak as he is the same height as Nico Hulkenberg who has struggled when it comes to getting into higher tier teams due to his size.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by IceMan_PJN

He's pretty much certain to be a back-marker. He doesn't seem to be going into this with any idea of what he's in for and lacking any proper respect for the challenge at hand.

That's an incredibly foolish assumption.

Up front, he figures he will go in with a Dallara chassis, which means he's going to be a back-marker. Dallara seams fine when you're dealing with a lower-technology series or a series like IndyCar where it's pretty much "here's exactly how to build a qualifying car, so build this."

Uh, Dallara know how to build a chassis. They are about as turn-key as it gets to get a project underway. If you undermine their resources, then you've no idea what they can do.

I was researching Dallara involvement in F1, and there doesn't seem to be much of a history there. Aside from more than twenty years ago, it looks to be down to HRT in 2010, and of course we know how competitive they were... or weren't.

it comes down to money. Just because you have a chassis doesn't mean you know what to do with it.

His plan seems to be to start there and learn about chassis-building, and that's something that he needs to do to really be competitive down the road, but I don't think that's something you can do in a year or two. Teams with many years of F1 experience aren't all competing at the front, so I don't see him suddenly being all that competitive in a handful of years.

He has significant cash, and resources available. As someone had said elsewhere, don't be surprised if Lockheed and The Skunkworks get involved.

As for drivers like Earnhardt or Patrick, they aren't options because they need to hold a super license to drive in F1 and they don't meet the eligibility requirements. They must be a reigning champion in a lower series like Formula 3, Formula 2, or GP2, or at least finish consistently well in these series.

All you need is history in another semi-major series, and 300km running in an F1 car.

Having said that, he has options for drivers.

[321Go]

Originally Posted by IceMan_PJN

The best American option I can find that meets these criteria is Ryan Hunter-Reay..

Heard of Alexander Rossi? He is the most likely candidate for a Haas F1 seat as the 'young American driver'. But most American F1 fans won't know who he is because he isn't driving in NASCAR and doesn't look mildly-attractive in a bikini.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by csirl

As for hiring experienced F1 staff, I don't see it as being as big a deal as people think. There are plenty of out of work experienced people in UK and elsewhere in Europe who would happily take a well paid job in the USA. There are many others who'd move for a modest pay increase. I don't see the U.S. location as being a big deal when it comes to recruitment.

There are already plenty of europeans that have come here to work in the US racing industry, so it's not a big deal or anything new. This isn't 20-30 years ago, times have changed.

As long as the team is serious business and fully funded(unlike USF1), I don't think they'll have any problem attracting talent.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

That's an incredibly foolish assumption.

Uh, Dallara know how to build a chassis. They are about as turn-key as it gets to get a project underway. If you undermine their resources, then you've no idea what they can do. it comes down to money. Just because you have a chassis doesn't mean you know what to do with it. He has significant cash, and resources available. As someone had said elsewhere, don't be surprised if Lockheed and The Skunkworks get involved.

All you need is history in another semi-major series, and 300km running in an F1 car.

Having said that, he has options for drivers.

We know what Dallara can do. They built a F1 car for the now defunct HRT team a few years ago that was 15-20 years out of date with modern technology and aerodynamics.

I guess if they want to start there, whatever, but I don't think that is worth the waste of time.

[davyboy]

I wonder why successful, intelligent people succumb to this madness. If $1BN is burning a hole in your pocket, why not use it to help children in the third world ?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I wonder why successful, intelligent people succumb to this madness. If $1BN is burning a hole in your pocket, why not use it to help children in the third world ?

Never introduce logic or common sense to an internet forum, most of those involved in circular argument don't get it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

We know what Dallara can do. They built a F1 car for the now defunct HRT team a few years ago that was 15-20 years out of date with modern technology and aerodynamics.

I guess if they want to start there, whatever, but I don't think that is worth the waste of time.

The only reason I can think of for Haas to use Dallara, is that's all he knows when it come to OWR because of IndyCar.

[Richard C]

Everyone is so quick to tear down the decision to use Dallara. I get that it would be a miracle if they produced a winning car, etc. But if you had to pick someone (an existing company) to build you an F1 car who would it be? And please, answers that include current F1 constructors (Ferrari, McLaren, etc.) is absolutely not realistic.

List the names of the various manufactures of top open wheel series in recent history? I am not an authority (Google is helping me), but it seems you have Indy Car, GP2, F3, Indy Light (bit of a stretch as top series) with Dallara, F2 with Williams and A1GP with Ferrari. As mentioned above, I just don't see any current F1 constructor willing to create a new F1 car for a third party team (especially as you know Haas fully intends to walk away with ownership of the IP). That leaves Dallara, or dipping into manufactures of smaller open wheel series (FF anyone?), or manufactures of closed wheel cars such as Dome, OAK, Lola/Multimatic (whatever is left of that design team) or maybe someone like Wirth (not a pretty recent history with F1).

Their strategy may or may not be a good one, but given that strategy, Dallara is the sound choice.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Their strategy may or may not be a good one, but given that strategy, Dallara is the sound choice.

Richard

I think you are right, the caveat would be that Dallara don't get to design the car, that is where they would fall short!

This is the tub only, and the carbon fiber bits we are talking about?

I fear if it is a Dallara customer car it will be a disaster!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

This is the tub only, and the carbon fiber bits we are talking about?

Only Haas know for sure, but I am assuming that Dallara will be designing and constructing a complete car. Particularly for the first season. Maybe much less so for the second as Haas gets staffed up. I think the details that would have to be worked out (which are things that might cramp Dallara's style) is the potential for having Haas staff injected into the design team (likely a disruption and protection of internal IP issues), and the use of the Haas owned wind tunnel (which Dallara may or may not have experience with using. I assume Dalllara's own aero team have their own preferences on where to do wind tunnel testing).

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Everyone is so quick to tear down the decision to use Dallara. I get that it would be a miracle if they produced a winning car, etc. But if you had to pick someone (an existing company) to build you an F1 car who would it be? And please, answers that include current F1 constructors (Ferrari, McLaren, etc.) is absolutely not realistic.

List the names of the various manufactures of top open wheel series in recent history? I am not an authority (Google is helping me), but it seems you have Indy Car, GP2, F3, Indy Light (bit of a stretch as top series) with Dallara, F2 with Williams and A1GP with Ferrari. As mentioned above, I just don't see any current F1 constructor willing to create a new F1 car for a third party team (especially as you know Haas fully intends to walk away with ownership of the IP). That leaves Dallara, or dipping into manufactures of smaller open wheel series (FF anyone?), or manufactures of closed wheel cars such as Dome, OAK, Lola/Multimatic (whatever is left of that design team) or maybe someone like Wirth (not a pretty recent history with F1).

Their strategy may or may not be a good one, but given that strategy, Dallara is the sound choice.

Richard

Swift, that's if he wants an all American team.

[wolfhound]

There are two parts to designing and building an F1 car. To me the most important bit is the people who actually design the car. They have to have resourses in terms of R&D things like wind tunnel, CFD etc so they can do that job to the best of their ability. The second part is the building of the car, this can be done by using a lot subcontractors of a single subcontractor or in house. Most teams will use a combination of the first and last. The part where I would be concerned with in the Haas case is the design team where I would question Dallara's ability. They have not built a car in a class where there is competition for some time (with the exception of the first HRT). This could have a knock on effect in terms of their design ability as they will be looking to produce a car to a different type of specification.
If looks at he number of people manufacturing LMP cars there is a competitive environment which should mean that design teams are a lot sharper and more familiar the technologies needed for the design of an F1 car.
However all of this will not be as good as a team of people who have designed and run an F1 car in the recent past.

[P38 in workshop]

As much as I would like to see this project succeed,it does seem an odd way to go about things.An analogy would be that a man who owns the largest forklift dealer in the middle east decides to build a bacon processing plant,because his forklifts will be able to load the trucks leaving the plant really efficiently.Ignoring the fact that in the chosen locality there is nobody with any knowledge of the production process and no market for the product.Then he chooses to have a company thousands of miles away do the actual cooking to a recipe he supplies.Always supposing he can recruit somebody with a good recipe.Fair comparison?Logical?Likely to succeed?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

As much as I would like to see this project succeed,it does seem an odd way to go about things.An analogy would be that a man who owns the largest forklift dealer in the middle east decides to build a bacon processing plant,because his forklifts will be able to load the trucks leaving the plant really efficiently.Ignoring the fact that in the chosen locality there is nobody with any knowledge of the production process and no market for the product.Then he chooses to have a company thousands of miles away do the actual cooking to a recipe he supplies.Always supposing he can recruit somebody with a good recipe.Fair comparison?Logical?Likely to succeed?

... imagine now that bacon processing costs a fortune, is something that only ever looses money - no matter where in the world it's done - and that people pursue it solely for passion... and you're there !

[garcon]

I can't imagine a world without bacon.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by garcon

I can't imagine a world without bacon.

Its a world where there's bacon, but it's really, really, expensive, more than caviar...

[Paradise City]

Dullara will deliver a car, it'll be functional, it'll finish but it'll finish stone last. Dallara cut the relationship with HRT before their season started so we never saw them support that effort, I presume Haas will be more diligent and will be paying Dallara for their support.

Judging from what he's saying, it's the only grounded decision about this expensive adventure. It's a decision that'll mean he'll be the American Super Aguri rather another USF1 - on current reading of what I'm seeing anyway.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Dullara will deliver a car, it'll be functional, it'll finish but it'll finish stone last. Dallara cut the relationship with HRT before their season started so we never saw them support that effort, I presume Haas will be more diligent and will be paying Dallara for their support.

Judging from what he's saying, it's the only grounded decision about this expensive adventure. It's a decision that'll mean he'll be the American Super Aguri rather another USF1 - on current reading of what I'm seeing anyway.

Running a customer car for a year or two while you establish the F1 infrastructure necessary to design and develop and then build a car may be a good way to go though!

Will need deep pockets even by F1 standards though!

I still think buying an existing team would be the best way to go, but I guess national pride and the perception of such will be very important for this team.

[321Go]

Agree 100% with the article below.

F1 'insiders' doubt wisdom of Haas’ US-based bid

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Agree 100% with the article below.

F1 'insiders' doubt wisdom of Haas’ US-based bid

The article hits the expected (and valid) high points. Generally nothing new. But I do have a comment on one quote from the article...

For me, it's the wrong move,” the Irishman told Sky Sports, “He's going to be basing his car around the Dallara, …. so why base yourself in North America when everything has to be flown from Europe to North America to be assembled to be transported back for a European season? I would imagine you're already starting on the back foot by basing your team in North Carolina.

I think the validity of that specific point depends upon where the ongoing "development" of the Dallara car is located. Hypothetical/speculation...

First (and maybe second) season... Car completely designed and constructed by Dallara. Dallara (in conjunction with Haas staff as they are hired) develops the car at Dallara's site. Build up of design staff (and related hardware) happens in NC. Yet to be determined european site is likely launching point for both fly away and european races (i.e. Dallara car lives at European base). Focus on making it to and completing races. Basically a very european centric solution. Cars may actually never fly to North America except for fly away races??? (not sure about what if any aero testing may take place in US at Windshear at this point)

Second (or third) season... Car uses the same monocoque from prior season. Development moves to US and away from Dallara as US staff fully in place. Mixed use of local and european suppliers.

Some future season... Complete design, construction and development in US. Car may or may not be an evolution of the initial Dallara. Continued use of local and european suppliers.

Richard

[Catingaround]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

european site is likely launching point for both fly away and european races (i.e. Dallara car lives at European base).

From the press conference with Haas it sounds like the cars remain with the flying F1 circus and only updates are brought to the tracks and fitted to the cars there. It's not like national series that ship the cars out, bring them back to HQ, rebuild, then ship them off to the next event.

IMO starting with a Dallara and evolving it in coming years to a proper Haas Formula car is a good idea, probably the only logical choice for a start up team, other than buying an existing team of course.

The big difference here, as compared to HRT, is that Haas plans on developing his Dallara, they have the money, facilities and experience running a championship winning Cup team. I hope they can make the grid for 2015, it will be fun to follow their efforts.