Red Bull Unhappy

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Are you allowed to volunteer? As long as someone is not being paid, pretty sure they can volunteer for whoever they want.

The point is that they tend to be on paid "gardening" leave whilst they are still under contract to the old employer. That contrct would preclude them from "volunteering" to "work" at another Formula 1 employer. They may allow the individual to fill their time by working for nothing in a charity shop, but that would usually be as far it goes.

[chillibowl]

surely this is just a matter for the UK version of a Labour Board. RB probably owes something in the way of compensation but this seems like a rather mundane matter for a mundane legal setting.

why is something that happens to every large company several times a year (going to the labour board that is) becoming a larger issue?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

surely this is just a matter for the UK version of a Labour Board. RB probably owes something in the way of compensation but this seems like a rather mundane matter for a mundane legal setting.

why is something that happens to every large company several times a year (going to the labour board that is) becoming a larger issue?

I am not sure what a Labour Board is, but whatever it is, I don't think that we have one in the UK. We do have Employment Tribunals, but they deal with disputes between employers and employees, usually after a person has left their employment.

Otherwise, contract disputes are dealt with in the civil courts if the cannot be resolved prior to that. This was one of the reasons that the FIA set up it's own contracts' recognition facility, where teams in dispute over staff can plead the relevances of their contracts with the, usually, drivers.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I am not sure what a Labour Board is, but whatever it is, I don't think that we have one in the UK. We do have Employment Tribunals, but they deal with disputes between employers and employees, usually after a person has left their employment.

similar to my province's version then. obviously we dont know all the details but from what i have understood so far this is a question about proper notice not being given so it would be an end of employment type situation which is why i thought labour relations as opposed to civil matter.

anyways kind of extreme if Mclaren are going to start taking their (ex) employees to civil court unless of course this is an extreme situation (spygate pops to mind).

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

This was one of the reasons that the FIA set up it's own contracts' recognition facility, where teams in dispute over staff can plead the relevances of their contracts with the, usually, drivers.

good point. if this is just a case of one team improperly poaching another team's employees (staff as well as athletes) then sports leagues usually have accepted rules about this and have an internal mechanism to deal with breaches. going outside of that to the civil courts is also a strange course to take imo.

sorry if this is moving off topic.

[Mike Harte]

Chillibowl

This is somewhat more convoluted than you imagine. As I understand it, Fallows decided that he wanted to leave RBR and join McLaren. He was interviewed, etc. and was offered a position in Woking, and he then signed a contract of employment with McLaren.

Part of his existing employment contract with RBR dictated that he had to take, so called, "gardening" leave before he was able to commence his new job at McLaren, and McLaren were aware of this and accepted that that was the position.

However, during "gardening" leave, Fallows decided, or possible was persauded, to remain with RBR. It is this reversal that McLaren are taking to the courts because they believe that RBR were well aware that Fallows had signed a contract of employment with McLaren, and as part of that process he had handed in his notice of termination to RBR.

I would imagine that McLaren would be seeking damages from RBR because they are now left without a person who will fill the position that Fallows was to take, and it is likely that if they now find someone to fill that vacancy that that person will probably have to take "gardening" leave before they can join, further delaying their loss. McLaren could well argue that all their plans had been formulated on the assumption, having signed a contract, that Fallows would be joining them, and that there is now a consequential loss to their business.

[chillibowl]

no thats pretty much how i understood it as well.

anyways this cant be the first time this has happened between teams nor will it be the last so im curious what makes this situation worthy of civil court?

from the other side im curious why a mechanism within the sport doesnt exist to deal with these types of issues or if it does why havent they already figured out fair compensation to the extent that Mclaren no longer feels the need to go to civil court to get satisfaction.

anyways its kind of ridiculous that teams are suing each other in civil court over labour issues.

my gut feeling is that Denis has a bone to pick and it has nothing to do with Fallows not showing up for work on time.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

anyways its kind of ridiculous that teams are suing each other in civil court over labour issues.

my gut feeling is that Denis has a bone to pick and it has nothing to do with Fallows not showing up for work on time.

In the UK, we have had quite a few not dissimilar employment cases going throgh the courts; often involving high-earning types in the financial services industry.

But back with McLaren; I do think that Dennis is a little more than peeved with Fallows and RBR over this matter. My understanding about Dennis is that a handshake is sufficient to seal a deal, and a signed contract is sacrosanct. So he, or his HR people, did send e-mails and letters to RBR, but not receiving what they considered reasonable responses, they passed it on to the lawyers to resolve. According to reports in the UK media, McLaren didn't receive any satisfactory replies via that route, and the only other option was to go to court.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

My understanding about Dennis is that a handshake is sufficient to seal a deal, and a signed contract is sacrosanct.

i would be curious to get Whitmarsh's opinion on that!

anyways agree to disagree on this because i must admit i am a bit biased against Ron Denis

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i would be curious to get Whitmarsh's opinion on that!

anyways agree to disagree on this because i must admit i am a bit biased against Ron Denis

As far as anyone is aware, Whitmarsh is still working at McLaren, but not on the Formula 1 side. He and Dennis go a long way back, and he was Dennis's right-hand man for many years; apart from which, they and their families are personal friends.

Dennis is a bit like Marmite (if you know that is) - you either love him or hate him. I admire him for what he has created (with Teddy Mayer) with what Bruce McLaren started, but I must admit I fin Ron-speak more than a little tiring. I would agree that he is an acquired taste.

[Eff One]

Of course Red Bull aren't happy. They're not winning and that's what they're used to.

[wolfhound]

Red Bull have been reported as saying they are unhappy with their current Renault engines. Helmut Marko has spoken on the subject. However Christian Horner today said that they would be definitely staying with Renault for 2015. He did mention about anything beyond that..........

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns28202.html

[NaBUru38]

With all that cash that's piling up in Dieter's medieval castle, he could buy one or two engine manufacturers.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Red Bull have been reported as saying they are unhappy with their current Renault engines. Helmut Marko has spoken on the subject. However Christian Horner today said that they would be definitely staying with Renault for 2015. He did mention about anything beyond that..........

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns28202.html

You are now just being mischeivious, if Horner had said RBR would be using Renault engines until 2017 you and the press would be speculating that they had not said anything about 2018.

Nothing to make from this!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

My understanding about Dennis is that a handshake is sufficient to seal a deal, and a signed contract is sacrosanct.

That was my understanding of Ron's philosophy too, and I don't know of anyone saying anything different!

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

In the UK, we have had quite a few not dissimilar employment cases going throgh the courts; often involving high-earning types in the financial services industry.

But back with McLaren; I do think that Dennis is a little more than peeved with Fallows and RBR over this matter. My understanding about Dennis is that a handshake is sufficient to seal a deal, and a signed contract is sacrosanct. So he, or his HR people, did send e-mails and letters to RBR, but not receiving what they considered reasonable responses, they passed it on to the lawyers to resolve. According to reports in the UK media, McLaren didn't receive any satisfactory replies via that route, and the only other option was to go to court.

Has anything come of this action?

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by wnut

You are now just being mischeivious, if Horner had said RBR would be using Renault engines until 2017 you and the press would be speculating that they had not said anything about 2018.

Nothing to make from this!

I was just pointing out that you need to read between the lines of what has been said on the subject. If he had said RB that they will be using Renault engines for the next three years then it would be subject closed but with a lot of background comments about RB's unhappyness with Renault in recent times the rumours are unlikely to go away.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

Has anything come of this action?

Nothing has been reported, as far as I know. I would imagine that McLaren wouldn't necessarily need the matter to be clarified quickly as Fallows won't be coming to join them in any event, and I very much doubt that McLaren would want him there any more, anyway.

My best guess is that, now that Dennis has started the legal ball rolling, that they will wait to see if the threat of court action has been sufficient to get RBR to blink first, and if not, then the next thing that we will hear will be when the action is set down to be heard in court.

I wouldn't advise staying awake in the hope that you might miss something!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I wouldn't advise staying awake in the hope that you might miss something!

Thanks!

[wolfhound]

Red Bull Unhappy?


Not today?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I wouldn't advise staying awake in the hope that you might miss something!

Well, in the event, you would have only lost two nights' sleep! Horner and Dennis have arrived at an compromise, meaning that legal action will no longer be required - Horner must have blinked!

It would seem that the sweetner for Dennis is that Red Bull will probably release Peter Prodromou earlier than expected, possibly during the course of the current season.

And it was all sealed with a handshake, as Horner and RBR acknowledge that that is all that needed to affirm an agreement with Dennis.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Well, in the event, you would have only lost two nights' sleep! Horner and Dennis have arrived at an compromise, meaning that legal action will no longer be required - Horner must have blinked!

It would seem that the sweetner for Dennis is that Red Bull will probably release Peter Prodromou earlier than expected, possibly during the course of the current season.

And it was all sealed with a handshake, as Horner and RBR acknowledge that that is all that needed to affirm an agreement with Dennis.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...ce=mostpopular


Thanks Mike!

[wolfhound]

Red Bull are reported as taking up their option on Ricciardo for 2015. Also it appears that Vettel is getting frustrated looking at the rear of the Mercedes dissapearing into the distance. I bet he doesn't feel half as frustrated as Alonso though who has had to look at the rear of Red Bulls for so long.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns28228.html

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Red Bull are reported as taking up their option on Ricciardo for 2015. Also it appears that Vettel is getting frustrated looking at the rear of the Mercedes dissapearing into the distance. I bet he doesn't feel half as frustrated as Alonso though who has had to look at the rear of Red Bulls for so long.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns28228.html

It would be interesting to see how the paddock sees Seb at the end of the year should he not get ahead of his 'upstart' junior teammate.

I guess Alonso wasn't too damaged by 2007 after his newbie teammate gave him a right run, but there wasn't anywhere competitive to go when he left McLaren. Same could apply to Vettel if he wanted an out. I doubt he'd get that desperate though.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by chunterer

It would be interesting to see how the paddock sees Seb at the end of the year should he not get ahead of his 'upstart' junior teammate.

I guess Alonso wasn't too damaged by 2007 after his newbie teammate gave him a right run, but there wasn't anywhere competitive to go when he left McLaren. Same could apply to Vettel if he wanted an out. I doubt he'd get that desperate though.

The difference with the McLaren '07 season was Alonso was in reality the new driver in the squad where is at RB Ricciardo is taking on the established champion. I suspect we might see a frustrated Vettel if he continues with Webber's old cars.

Mind you Vettel seemed to congratualate Ricciardo with a smile last Sunday.

[Christopher]

Greg Rust was talking to Tom Clarkson, on Ch 10 Aus F1 Channel, they mentioned Volkswagen or Honda to power Redbull in the future if Renault don't improve.

[wolfhound]

Christian Horner is chucking stuff out of the pram again. He is complaining about Renault. I don't remember him praiseing them too often when Red Bull was doing all the winning.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114598