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Old 31 Mar 2014, 20:12 (Ref:3387175)   #51
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I don't think that this rule is particularly badly written, it is just we feel it is no longer appropriate.
and since they got ride of the swimsuit portion of the competition it is also completely unnecessary!
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Old 2 Apr 2014, 00:22 (Ref:3387637)   #52
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I don't think that this rule is particularly badly written, it is just we feel it is no longer appropriate.
It is badly written imo, in that the car weight and driver weight have nothing to do with one another, it is kind of like legislating the weight of the horse and jockey and not ballasting the horse for the jockey's weight!
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Old 2 Apr 2014, 01:20 (Ref:3387649)   #53
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I don't think that this rule is particularly badly written, it is just we feel it is no longer appropriate.
Maybe badly written in the sense that it doesn't provide equity for larger built drivers (apparently when Tony Stewart had his run in a F1 McLaren he had to lose a LOT of weight to fit into the car...) but surely the FIA can write effective and equitable rules into it's technical rules and sporting code... Or can't it?

All it needs is a stipulated car and driver weight and within that weight or a compulsory weight for the driver and the seat (to ensure the weight is not distributed to other parts of the car) of say 85 or 90 kg.

I have followed this sport for over 40 years and remain amazed that the 'Ruling Body of World Motorsport' is so ineffective and bereft of any real sense of principle and common sense that it cannot legislate on basic ethical principle of competition that would create some equity for F1 driver weight.

They can create rules like the fuel flow rule and declare themselves the sole measurer of that aspect of F1, and supposedly expect everyone to trust them choose a system and administrate it, they can introduce rules to produce safety during pit stops but can't discern between a really dangerous situation and a responsible action by a driver in either the rule or the judicial body, and yet they can't establish a simple rule that would create some equity and justice for drivers.

We're expected to respect and honor them as the the 'world governors of motorsport' but in so many things they seem to be basically inept...
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Old 2 Apr 2014, 09:06 (Ref:3387756)   #54
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Old 2 Apr 2014, 18:33 (Ref:3387956)   #55
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I still see this as a natural progression of this rule. Simple rule, becoming more complicated to mitigate these issues.

Evolution of weight rule through the ages.
No rule.
Maximum weight of car (!)
Minimum weight of car.
Minimum weight of car + driver.
and maybe next:
Minimum weight of car and a minimum weight of driver/ballast/position of ballast.

It hasn't changed because people have stood in the weigh . Unanimous agreement and all that. Now the FIA could claim it is a safety matter and railroad it through.

Whatever, the solution needs to be a more complex rule. Exactly how? There are some good posts suggestions above. The posts that concentrated on the situation rather than those that concentrate on how the sport or governance is rubbish.
I know we all like to slag others off, but frankly it bores a me, I'm more interested in understanding what we should change, maybe how we got here, rather than who's fault that is. Concentrating on who's fault it is, and who benefits, may well be why there has been no progress.
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Old 2 Apr 2014, 19:16 (Ref:3387973)   #56
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Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
I still see this as a natural progression of this rule. Simple rule, becoming more complicated to mitigate these issues.

Evolution of weight rule through the ages.
No rule.
Maximum weight of car (!)
Minimum weight of car.
Minimum weight of car + driver.
and maybe next:
Minimum weight of car and a minimum weight of driver/ballast/position of ballast.

It hasn't changed because people have stood in the weigh . Unanimous agreement and all that. Now the FIA could claim it is a safety matter and railroad it through.

Whatever, the solution needs to be a more complex rule. Exactly how? There are some good posts suggestions above. The posts that concentrated on the situation rather than those that concentrate on how the sport or governance is rubbish.
I know we all like to slag others off, but frankly it bores a me, I'm more interested in understanding what we should change, maybe how we got here, rather than who's fault that is. Concentrating on who's fault it is, and who benefits, may well be why there has been no progress.
Indycar has a driver and seat minimum weight, so that ballast cannot be moved around the car as it is in F1.
If there was a minimum driver and seat weight (including driver ballast for the smaller guys) any other difference can be allocated as per the team desire.
The important thing is that the driver + seat weight is set a level that means the driver weight is not a performance difference factor for any driver.

Ramming rules through under the guise of safety is what a lot of national ASN's do.
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Old 2 Apr 2014, 19:54 (Ref:3387999)   #57
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Of all the things discussed in this thread, I like the driver+seat idea best. We'll have the ballast in the seat bottoms. Does it need a more detail definition of where the ballast goes?

I'm trying to lose a bit of weight because there is no weight limit (car or driver) at all in my series. Hasn't stopped me eating pizza and having a beer this evening.
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Old 2 Apr 2014, 19:57 (Ref:3388002)   #58
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Of all the things discussed in this thread, I like the driver+seat idea best. We'll have the ballast in the seat bottoms. Does it need a more detail definition of where the ballast goes?

I'm trying to lose a bit of weight because there is no weight limit (car or driver) at all in my series. Hasn't stopped me eating pizza and having a beer this evening.
Indycar specifies where and what part of the seat it goes to and I think it is reasonable to stop any manipulation of the driver ballast.

With regard to your personal conveyance machine, you may place it anywhere you like, as long as you can see out of the vehicle and maintain control of it.
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Old 2 Apr 2014, 20:05 (Ref:3388006)   #59
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The Indycar rule sounds decent.

I can see out of my machine, but can't guarantee maintaining control.
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Old 2 Apr 2014, 20:23 (Ref:3388011)   #60
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The Indycar rule sounds decent.

I can see out of my machine, but can't guarantee maintaining control.
Well in that case take care.... We don't want anything nasty to happen to you.

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Old 2 Apr 2014, 20:26 (Ref:3388012)   #61
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Old 9 Apr 2014, 06:31 (Ref:3390414)   #62
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Total madness by any measure!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ight-loss.html
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Old 9 Apr 2014, 18:26 (Ref:3390612)   #63
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Yes, that is the perfect way to describe the Daily Mail.
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Old 10 Apr 2014, 21:33 (Ref:3390897)   #64
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Yes, that is the perfect way to describe the Daily Mail.
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Old 10 Apr 2014, 22:58 (Ref:3390915)   #65
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Formula 1 Star passes out in Malaysia

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Old 23 Apr 2014, 11:00 (Ref:3397134)   #66
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This may well have come up already, but just read that Sutil is the heaviest driver on the grid, with Massa being the lightest.
Apparently there's a 17kg difference between them.
What would that be in tenths of a second?
Is that acceptable?
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Old 23 Apr 2014, 11:22 (Ref:3397143)   #67
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This may well have come up already, but just read that Sutil is the heaviest driver on the grid, with Massa being the lightest.
Apparently there's a 17kg difference between them.
What would that be in tenths of a second?
Is that acceptable?
The usual figure bandied about is 0.1 secs per litre.
A litre weighs about 750 g, so it would be about 0.1333 seconds per kg.

On that basis 17 kg would equate to 2.26 secs / lap (Note to self - Step back from computer!)

Acceptable - no way!

In club racing terms it would be like racing a light saloon with the spare wheel, that will certainly cost you places in the car's class!



Seems to be pretty well the reason Webber decided there was no future for him in F1!
Also raises the question: How good is Nico Hulkenberg?
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Old 23 Apr 2014, 11:44 (Ref:3397157)   #68
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There should be no benefit in the driver being lighter to the degree it is now. In other sports weight may be an advantage, but is balanced by a change in other performance. A rugby player adding mass will lose speed plus flexibility. He will balance his physique dependent on the demands of his position in the team. No point in being a prop weighing 12 stone or a scrum half weighing twenty.
Massa being small is a major advantage without any balancing disadvantage. This is clearly wrong and it cannot be beyond the wit of F1 to find an answer.
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Old 23 Apr 2014, 22:44 (Ref:3397491)   #69
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The usual figure bandied about is 0.1 secs per litre.
I don't think it's that significant. More like 0.1s for 10l.

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Seems to be pretty well the reason Webber decided there was no future for him in F1!
Surely the problem also exists in LMP?
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Old 24 Apr 2014, 00:35 (Ref:3397514)   #70
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I don't think it's that significant. More like 0.1s for 10l.
The 1/10 per litre is one I have heard bandied about.
Also 1/10 per kg.

I would say intuitively it was less than this, but greater than 1/10 for 10l or 7.5 kg.

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Surely the problem also exists in LMP?
I saw an interview in which Webber said he was sick and tired of always being on diet and was looking forward to eating better and having the odd glass of wine! So LMP may not be quite as critical as F1 2014?
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Old 25 Apr 2014, 18:26 (Ref:3398220)   #71
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As physics applies to both LMP and F1 it must be there. Although the cars are a little heavier in LMP so that dismisses the effect, but the rules are for car, not car and driver, which makes it worse, or at least always there.

Sportscar isn't pushed the nth degree as much as F1 and there are more factors that can influence the race because they are longer. I guess that is why.
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Old 25 Apr 2014, 18:32 (Ref:3398224)   #72
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Just done a quick internet search, didn't have time before.
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Originally Posted by James Allen
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/0...t-fine-on-fuel
Now at Istanbul the weight of the fuel for each lap is worth 8/100ths of a second of extra lap time, just under a tenth. So one kilo of fuel, which is what Vettel is supposed to have saved, would give him a speed disadvantage of 5/100ths of a second over Webber in pure fuel weight.
Obviously there is no real source of the information there and I thought that they used more than 1.6kg per lap back then? Which is what his calculation suggests. If true 10kg is half a second. That feels more like it.

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Old 26 Apr 2014, 01:32 (Ref:3398327)   #73
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Just done a quick internet search, didn't have time before.

Obviously there is no real source of the information there and I thought that they used more than 1.6kg per lap back then? Which is what his calculation suggests. If true 10kg is half a second. That feels more like it.
Adam, you have done some good work here!

I would tend to agree, it does feel more like it!

No matter how you dress it up a driver who is 10 kg heavier than another is a significantly disadvantaged, and you would need to assess the penalty when selecting drivers, which is why I believe Hulkenberg has not got a top drive.
It could account for the performance difference between Webber and Vettel.
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Old 27 Apr 2014, 04:36 (Ref:3398611)   #74
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Cars should be able to comfortably accomodate a 1.8m tall 90kg driver.
Precisely. This whole thing is getting ridiculous. It seems that now, if you are a driver that has a bigger frame and is a bit taller and you aren't built like a 12 year old girl, despite the amount of natural talent you might have, you are at a disadvantage in F1 right from the start because of the regulations. It needs to change, plain and simple.

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Old 27 Apr 2014, 06:37 (Ref:3398638)   #75
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I don't know about this. It does feel unfair to have the flyweights having an advantage, but is that not just their good fortune.

And what if you followed an example of parity in other sports. Basketball players wearing platform shoes of various sizes. Life jackets or outboard motors for the less buoyant swimmers. Horse racing would be rather different.

Maybe it should not be as pronounced as it is, but I'm not sure there's a lot that should be done about it at the pinnacle of the sport.
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