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Old 13 Mar 2013, 19:18 (Ref:3217998)   #26
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luke g28 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridluke g28 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The venues cant invest money if they dont make any.

Fees are becoming unsustainable, something is going to have to give.
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Old 13 Mar 2013, 19:21 (Ref:3217999)   #27
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Bononi, I was basically agreeing with what you just said in my previous post.
Yes, got it !
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Old 13 Mar 2013, 19:37 (Ref:3218003)   #28
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There is one area of Sao Paulo which is masterfully engineered... you can see it in the photos Bononi posted. That area is downtown, the area with all of the skyscrapers. However, most of Sao Paulo is one massive concrete block of poorly engineered urban development, too fast to even keep up with itself. To add to that, Sao Paulo has one of the highest homicide rates in the world. Basically everything surrounding downtown, north, south, east, or west, are small, run-down, dingy, drab, poorly-maintained neighborhoods and favelas. The same goes for New Delhi... the track (Buddh) itself is beautiful, and so is the airport, but New Delhi itself is a crime-ridden, smelly, heaving, polluted hellhole... poorly engineered, poorly maintained, poor overall. I have studied urban planning and geography... there are pockets of high-tech, ultra-modern urban areas in every city (except maybe Dhaka, Bangladesh!), including New Delhi and Sao Paulo, but it is no place for Formula 1.

Those buildings you see are all in one, semi-large space... Downtown Sao Paulo. That's where those skyscrapers, the Cathedral, the bridge, and the final photos are. Otherwise, urban sprawl. Most of the downtown is in need of some rebuilding, too. It is basically consisted of boring, gray skyscrapers with dirty windows and foundations eroding from acid rain.

Again, I hope I didn't offend anyone. Brasilia would be the perfect place to host F1, I think... near the government (where the money is), with a bunch of land, and a lot less crime. Rio is also an option... still lots of crime, but better looking buildings and a lot more tourists, plus the 2014 World Cup and the 2016 Olympic Games.



Here are some photos of the bad side of Sao Paulo.


Favelas


Pollution


Traffic
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Old 13 Mar 2013, 21:47 (Ref:3218052)   #29
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I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, but Brasilia doesn't really have the same presence; it doesn't look as impressive as a city. Heck, if Tilke built a new circuit there, and it followed the trend of quite a few of his other works, the buildings at the track would look grander and more impressive than the central quarter of Brasilia (designed by the late, great Oscar Niemeyer). It's not terribly surprising that Brasilia doesn't have the high-rises and such, with a population density of less than 1,200/sq-mi. (For reference, Manhattan Island, adjacent to the New Jersey GP site, has a population density of ~70,000/sq-mi.)

Bernie has turned F1 very much into an expression of image and power, and the world's great metropoli (New York, Tokyo, Shanghai, Sao Paulo, etc), in this day and age, are the most effective sort of places/tools for conveying that message. Remember, when F1 was in Indianapolis, a veritable mecca for motorsports, Bernie stayed in Chicago. That certainly ought to tell you something.
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Old 13 Mar 2013, 21:58 (Ref:3218060)   #30
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I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, but Brasilia doesn't really have the same presence; it doesn't look as impressive as a city. Heck, if Tilke built a new circuit there, and it followed the trend of quite a few of his other works, the buildings at the track would look grander and more impressive than the central quarter of Brasilia (designed by the late, great Oscar Niemeyer). It's not terribly surprising that Brasilia doesn't have the high-rises and such, with a population density of less than 1,200/sq-mi. (For reference, Manhattan Island, adjacent to the New Jersey GP site, has a population density of ~70,000/sq-mi.)

Bernie has turned F1 very much into an expression of image and power, and the world's great metropoli (New York, Tokyo, Shanghai, Sao Paulo, etc), in this day and age, are the most effective sort of places/tools for conveying that message. Remember, when F1 was in Indianapolis, a veritable mecca for motorsports, Bernie stayed in Chicago. That certainly ought to tell you something.
Really? Wow, Bernie's really got his head up his ***.

I still don't understand why they didn't build the USA's F1 racetrack in "the five corners": Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and D.C. That would have attracted even more fans, and would have been a lot closer of a distance for a lot more people. Still, not complaining... I just wish I could have Bernie's job.
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Old 13 Mar 2013, 22:24 (Ref:3218085)   #31
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... I have studied urban planning and geography...
You might have studied but you clearly don't know Brazil. Brasilia is the political/administrative capital of Brazil. That's not where the money is. São Paulo is the financial/economic heart of South America (not only Brazil), it's the prime destination for executive tourism and more, São Paulo is the heart of motorsport in Brazil. Ayrton Senna, Barrichello, Felipe Massa, Emerson Fittipaldi are all paulistanos (São Paulo city born), is so natural to have a race there. Furthermore, 2014 World Cup will be held in São Paulo also as the football matches and other sports for Rio 2016. I will not go down into more details as it's a waste of time and space, but is only natural to São Paulo to hold a Grand Prix, for his pontential, power, tradition in motorsport and all things related.



P.S.: Your description of São Paulo is not accurated, but that's off topic...
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 00:15 (Ref:3218125)   #32
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I'd love for all the track promoters to get together and tell bernie to go **** himself.

BRAVO, BRAVO!!! JOLLY WELL SAID!!!!
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 00:19 (Ref:3218128)   #33
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You might have studied but you clearly don't know Brazil. Brasilia is the political/administrative capital of Brazil. That's not where the money is. São Paulo is the financial/economic heart of South America (not only Brazil), it's the prime destination for executive tourism and more, São Paulo is the heart of motorsport in Brazil. Ayrton Senna, Barrichello, Felipe Massa, Emerson Fittipaldi are all paulistanos (São Paulo city born), is so natural to have a race there. Furthermore, 2014 World Cup will be held in São Paulo also as the football matches and other sports for Rio 2016. I will not go down into more details as it's a waste of time and space, but is only natural to São Paulo to hold a Grand Prix, for his pontential, power, tradition in motorsport and all things related.



P.S.: Your description of São Paulo is not accurated, but that's off topic...
This is ALL completely off topic. We're supposed to be discussing Montreal, and now we're all pointing fingers at Sao Paulo. I'm sorry I brought this up in the first place. This is the very last I'm going to say on this issue...

I see your point. Basically, it all comes down to aesthetics. Sao Paulo is a really dirty, dingy, bad place in my opinion, and I'd much rather see F1 in Rio or Brasilia, but that's your opinion and I respect it. By the way, if I am interpreting you right, you are saying the 2014 final match for the World Cup is in Sao Paulo? That's not correct... its in Estadio do Maracana, Rio.

All this being said, I do know Brazil. Please, don't put words in my mouth. Sao Paulo is the financial capital and where all the money is. I should rephrase my original statement: Brasilia is where all the POWER is. Government is power... power is government. However, government can't be properly sustained without money, and that's what Sao Paulo has. Rio is the tourist and sporting capital. Brasilia is also the agricultural capital, as well as governmental, economic, and administrative. The rest are just large cities with semi-large tourist and sporting activities. In conclusion, there is no reason, in my opinion, for F1 to stay in Sao Paulo.

That's all I'm going to say about that. On Canada, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve is a very nice venue and it doesn't seem run down to me at all. However, if they want to renovate, I'd suggest they stop that idea and move on from Montreal. Toronto is like Canada's Sao Paulo, except it is a heck of a lot safer, cleaner, and nicer (IMHO). It is the financial powerhouse of Canada and has the most people... plus a lot of nice, empty land, which would be good for racetrack building. Like someone mentioned before, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve is resting on a man-made island that was built for the World's Fair in '67... Ile Notre Dame. There is relatively limited space on those fairgrounds. As a result, there is almost no geographical room for development... at least not on Ile Notre Dame. In my opinion, turn the fairgrounds into a one-weekend party, every year... make it the IndyCar / ALMS doubleheader of something like that. Keep Formula 1 on its toes and build a purpose-built circuit in Toronto, Vancouver, or even Montreal, if they feel so inclined.
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 01:06 (Ref:3218134)   #34
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BRAVO, BRAVO!!! JOLLY WELL SAID!!!!
But you know that he would just use the old 'divide and rule' method to get some promoters back on his side. What do I mean "know that he would" - he is!
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 01:08 (Ref:3218136)   #35
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I said :

Quote:
Furthermore, 2014 World Cup will be held in São Paulo ALSO
São Paulo is one of the 12 host cities and the opening match of the WC 2014 will be in the Itaquera Stadium (http://www.portal2014.org.br/en/host-cities/SAO+PAULO/)



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All this being said, I do know Brazil.
You do know Brazil, I am the one who doesn't know Brazil.

Then it won't be a problem to read portuguese on that portal.

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Rio is the tourist and sporting capital
Sporting capital ????

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Brasilia is also the agricultural capital, as well as governmental, economic, and administrative. The rest are just large cities with semi-large tourist and sporting activities.
Oh my... oh my, you surely know Brazil I never... oh, what about Buenos Aires ?? Agricultural ? and mining ? Oil ? The rest are just...

I'm sorry, I just don't know Brazil, I'm totally lost now.
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 01:28 (Ref:3218148)   #36
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I said :



São Paulo is one of the 12 host cities and the opening match of the WC 2014 will be in the Itaquera Stadium (http://www.portal2014.org.br/en/host-cities/SAO+PAULO/)





You do know Brazil, I am the one who doesn't know Brazil.

Then it won't be a problem to read portuguese on that portal.



Sporting capital ????



Oh my... oh my, you surely know Brazil I never... oh, what about Buenos Aires ?? Agricultural ? and mining ? Oil ? The rest are just...

I'm sorry, I just don't know Brazil, I'm totally lost now.
As you are the moderator, it seems ironic that I should be telling you this, but I quote directly from the thread titled 'ATTENTION : Postings in the F1 Forum - Please read". This was the first thing I ever read on this forum. I think it needs to be rehashed.

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We have noticed a worrying trend creeping into the F1 forum, where no argument will be brooked and opposing viewpoints are either ridiculed or taken to extremes. We believe this is stifling good discussion.

First and foremost 10 Tenths is a discussion forum – be aware that not everyone will agree with your viewpoint – that doesn’t make it wrong or right – just different.
So don't bite my head off for this. My viewpoint's "just different"... I'm sorry if it offended you. I don't appreciate someone mocking my knowledge of the world or taunting me sarcastically about my previous post. I get the impression you intend to make a mockery out of my statement... that's just out of line, bro.
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 01:34 (Ref:3218153)   #37
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Well, as you said, you do know Brazil, and I'll give you that.

Enough of knowledge of the world, I have to figure out where I'm living !
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 01:36 (Ref:3218154)   #38
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Well, as you said, you do know Brazil, and I'll give you that.

Enough of knowledge of the world, I have to figure out where I'm living !
Are you feeling alright, Bononi?
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 09:23 (Ref:3218225)   #39
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Beetle dear chap, you really shouldn't take Bononi's comments too personally.

You have to admit there's a certain irony in you saying "I do know Brazil" to a resident Brazilian.
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 12:38 (Ref:3218284)   #40
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Beetle dear chap, you really shouldn't take Bononi's comments too personally.

You have to admit there's a certain irony in you saying "I do know Brazil" to a resident Brazilian.
I didn't know he was Brazilian!!!
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 13:22 (Ref:3218298)   #41
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Sao Paulo is the financial capital and where all the money is.

Brasilia is where all the POWER is.

Rio is the tourist and sporting capital.
Rio is the soul of Brazil. And it's the sporting capital too: it has Interlagos, and 28 football titles, versus a demolished Jacarepaguá and 15 football titles.
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 20:50 (Ref:3218511)   #42
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Rio is the soul of Brazil. And it's the sporting capital too: it has Interlagos, and 28 football titles, versus a demolished Jacarepaguá and 15 football titles.
I agree, Rio is the soul of Brazil. I'm supposing you're referring to Sao Paulo in the second sentence, though?

OK, let's stop talking about Brazil, shall we? By gosh, we have the first race of the championship of 2013 coming up in a couple of days and we're talking about boring contract offers years ahead! Let's live in the moment!
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 21:08 (Ref:3218523)   #43
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This thread was orginally about Montreal, should we have a seperate one for Brazil?
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Old 14 Mar 2013, 23:45 (Ref:3218618)   #44
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This thread was orginally about Montreal, should we have a seperate one for Brazil?
Yes, but that would be like dropping Little Boy over Hiroshima at this point.
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Old 16 Mar 2013, 19:17 (Ref:3219519)   #45
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I agree, Rio is the soul of Brazil. I'm supposing you're referring to Sao Paulo in the second sentence, though?

OK, let's stop talking about Brazil, shall we? By gosh, we have the first race of the championship of 2013 coming up in a couple of days and we're talking about boring contract offers years ahead! Let's live in the moment!
Change your signature (MOD)..
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Old 17 Mar 2013, 11:22 (Ref:3219958)   #46
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Iike that F1 runs at the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. However, part of me certainly wouldn't mind if Montreal's two annual events became one for IndyCar, and one for the new, combined sportscar series and/or the WEC. That would take the pressure off, both in terms of the absurd F1 sanction fee, and the "need" to upgrade the facilities.
It would be a shame to see Montreal gone from the calendar but would an IndyCar race be the right move? The series is practically on its last legs.
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Old 17 Mar 2013, 13:46 (Ref:3220001)   #47
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It would be a shame to see Montreal gone from the calendar but would an IndyCar race be the right move? The series is practically on its last legs.
Hopefully not...
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Old 17 Mar 2013, 16:27 (Ref:3220075)   #48
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While I was taking a spring break in Vegas, another article about the Montreal GP negotiations appeared in La Presse. Below is a Google translation tweaked by me.

The news sounds good, and I am cautiously optimistic about Montreal being able to keep its race. To you folks who are promoting Toronto as an alternative, I say, Fahgettaboudit

http://auto.lapresse.ca/course-autom...-bon-train.php

Canadian GP: the talks are going well
Sebastian Templar | Auto
LaPresse.ca
Posted March 13, 2013 | Updated March 13, 2013 at 12:47

As announced by La Presse this winter, optimism is in order about the extension of Formula 1 Grand Prix in Montreal beyond 2014. To the point where fans and media would like the matter to be settled ahead of time. Nothing is definite though. There is hope for good news in June.

Maintaining the Montreal Formula 1 beyond 2014 is not definitively established, despite what has been announced on the internet by some radio stations in Montreal.

"We were sitting in the Management Committee this morning (i.e., Wednesday March 13) and nothing came up like that. The latest negotiations are ongoing between governments, Tourism Montreal and Bernie Ecclestone. We know that the agreement is not ill-conceived. It remains to address the issue of renovations, "said Normand Prieur a consultant with Octane Group, promoter of the Canadian Grand Prix.

The talk is the same by the City of Montreal. "The case is very well advanced, we are optimistic, but I do not sell the bearskin before killing the bear," said Jonathan Abecassis, the spokesman for the mayor of Montreal.

And for good reason.

The current agreement, valid until 2014, stipulates that the government pays $15 million annually to Bernie Ecclestone for the the Grand Prix sanction fee. The next agreement between the two parties provides, if it is reached, indexing of 4% of the annual contribution. This means that in 2024, the last year of the new contract being negotiated, the contribution reaches $22.2 million.

The Government of Quebec, the Government of Canada, the City of Montreal and Tourisme Montréal have already agreed on this index.

But the second part of the next agreement between Ecclestone and the government also envisages renovations at theCircuit Gilles-Villeneuve. Modernization of facilities is one of the main conditions for the continuation of Formula 1 in the Montreal area until 2024. The control tower needs to be renovated, the paving of the track must be redone, a hospital track must be made available, and the garages and paddock need to be greatly improved.

To date, the various levels of government have not definitely agreed on how to share the costs and responsibilities for this work.

The eventual agreement between the governments will have a domino effect. They will make an agreement with Bernie Ecclestone and his operating company of F1, Formula One Management, on the sanction fee increases and the track work. Then, it will be up to the race promoter in Montreal, Octane, to agree with Bernie Ecclestone for the sanctioning fee and the retention of the Grand Prix. Ultimately, Octane must also sign a lease for the facilities of the circuit with the Société du parc Jean-Drapeau [the organization that governs the island park where the race takes place].

In Formula 1, the most recent contracts with Ecclestone are all for over 10 years.
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Old 18 Mar 2013, 21:51 (Ref:3220836)   #49
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Originally Posted by BobHWS View Post
While I was taking a spring break in Vegas, another article about the Montreal GP negotiations appeared in La Presse. Below is a Google translation tweaked by me.

The news sounds good, and I am cautiously optimistic about Montreal being able to keep its race. To you folks who are promoting Toronto as an alternative, I say, Fahgettaboudit

http://auto.lapresse.ca/course-autom...-bon-train.php

Canadian GP: the talks are going well
Sebastian Templar | Auto
LaPresse.ca
Posted March 13, 2013 | Updated March 13, 2013 at 12:47

As announced by La Presse this winter, optimism is in order about the extension of Formula 1 Grand Prix in Montreal beyond 2014. To the point where fans and media would like the matter to be settled ahead of time. Nothing is definite though. There is hope for good news in June.

Maintaining the Montreal Formula 1 beyond 2014 is not definitively established, despite what has been announced on the internet by some radio stations in Montreal.

"We were sitting in the Management Committee this morning (i.e., Wednesday March 13) and nothing came up like that. The latest negotiations are ongoing between governments, Tourism Montreal and Bernie Ecclestone. We know that the agreement is not ill-conceived. It remains to address the issue of renovations, "said Normand Prieur a consultant with Octane Group, promoter of the Canadian Grand Prix.

The talk is the same by the City of Montreal. "The case is very well advanced, we are optimistic, but I do not sell the bearskin before killing the bear," said Jonathan Abecassis, the spokesman for the mayor of Montreal.

And for good reason.

The current agreement, valid until 2014, stipulates that the government pays $15 million annually to Bernie Ecclestone for the the Grand Prix sanction fee. The next agreement between the two parties provides, if it is reached, indexing of 4% of the annual contribution. This means that in 2024, the last year of the new contract being negotiated, the contribution reaches $22.2 million.

The Government of Quebec, the Government of Canada, the City of Montreal and Tourisme Montréal have already agreed on this index.

But the second part of the next agreement between Ecclestone and the government also envisages renovations at theCircuit Gilles-Villeneuve. Modernization of facilities is one of the main conditions for the continuation of Formula 1 in the Montreal area until 2024. The control tower needs to be renovated, the paving of the track must be redone, a hospital track must be made available, and the garages and paddock need to be greatly improved.

To date, the various levels of government have not definitely agreed on how to share the costs and responsibilities for this work.

The eventual agreement between the governments will have a domino effect. They will make an agreement with Bernie Ecclestone and his operating company of F1, Formula One Management, on the sanction fee increases and the track work. Then, it will be up to the race promoter in Montreal, Octane, to agree with Bernie Ecclestone for the sanctioning fee and the retention of the Grand Prix. Ultimately, Octane must also sign a lease for the facilities of the circuit with the Société du parc Jean-Drapeau [the organization that governs the island park where the race takes place].

In Formula 1, the most recent contracts with Ecclestone are all for over 10 years.
That's good news... I think.
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Old 23 May 2013, 01:06 (Ref:3251940)   #50
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A May 19th article from the French language tabloid, Journal de Montreal, reports that talks are still in progress for a new contract for the Montreal race.

Below is a Google translation, tweaked by me.

There's no big news here--the article says that negotiations are still going on. The big stumbling blocks are these:
  1. What will be the new sanctioning fee? It is currently only about $15M/year.
  2. Will the national, provincial and city governments cover the fee, as they do now?
  3. What improvements to the infrastructure of the track will be required by the new contract?
  4. What will be the length of a new contract? 5 or 10 years?

The lack of details about the progress of the negotiations might be a good sign or a bad sign. We will probably hear more about this as we get closer to the race weekend. For now, I'm optimistic. Mais on verra.

The first quote from race promoter Dumontier about the Canadian GP having an important place in Bernie's heart makes me laugh. Bernie has tried to screw the Montreal race two or three times and the main reason he hasn't gotten rid of it is because the teams, the manufacturers and the fans support it wholeheartedly.

19/05/2013 7:22 p.m.
Grand Prix du Canada - Talks are underway
journaldemontreal.com

MONTREAL - "The Canadian Grand Prix has an important place on the World Championship circuit and in the heart of Bernie Ecclestone," said François Dumontier, the promoter of the event.

Dumontier is not a novice when it comes to negotiating with the big boss of Formula 1, Bernie Ecclestone. The developer did everything in his power to ensure that the event returned to Montreal after it was removed from the calendar in 2009.

But what is it like to meet with the big boss of F1?

"I remember, my secretary told me: 'Mr. Ecclestone is on the phone.' We didn't really know each other well. But let's say Bernie is straightforward, Dumontier said during his appearance on Réjean Tremblay's program. With him, there is no 'how are you?'. It was straight to the point. He said: 'I've started to talk with the Canadian and Quebec governments, I'm almost in agreement, I need a promoter, are you interested?' My answer: yes."

"He asked me how long it would take me to be in London. I said, "Give me 48 hours and I'll be there! '"

Ecclestone does not mince words. But it took several meetings before finally coming to an agreement.

"I introduced myself at his office and we immediately began to discuss a future agreement, said Dumontier. There were a total of five bargaining sessions before finally signing the agreement in November 2009. The first meeting was held in May 2009. That gives you an idea."

"But despite whatever has been said, having no World Championship race in North America in 2009 just didn't make sense."

Since that episode, the prestigious race at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve on Île Notre-Dame has once again been part of the F1 calendar. But the future of the Canadian Grand Prix in Montreal could be guaranteed for several more years.

Talks are underway

"We started negotiations with Bernie in February 2012 and they began well, said the developer. He wants to renew the agreement for 10 years. But since then, there have been [provincial] elections in September, there was a change of [provincial] government and we lost the mayor of Montreal in November [he resigned because of a scandal]. That caused delays.

"However, the talks resumed, he said. We have one more year on the current contract, so ideally we would like to make an announcement before it expires."

Dumontier has also had the opportunity to discuss this issue with the Acting Mayor of Montreal Michael Applebaum.

"Applebaum takes this issue to heart, he said. I didn't know it, but he is a fan of racing. From what I understand, an effort is being made to reach agreement going forward.

The Canadian Grand Prix will take place June 7, 8 and 9, at the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. Eight support races are also scheduled.
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