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Old 22 Sep 2013, 11:12 (Ref:3307360)   #51
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If things have been so stacked against Mark, why has he stayed at RBR for so long ?
Don't know. That's a question for Mark. Maybe it has something to do with the contracts he makes with Dietrich Mateschitz? Webber's contract (which is based on a handshake between him and Mateschitz by the way) with Red Bull is said that he gets bonus payments for points finishes. Red Bull is his best opportunity for points finishes. So why not hang around and make the most of it I guess.

I mean.. what other opportunities has he had since 2010 to move to a better team than Red Bull? Has there been a better team than Red Bull in the last few years? No. There was a flirt with Ferrari in 2012, but that might have been an attempt to get a better contract for himself at RBR. He was second in the WDC until Silverstone 2012 when he signed on for Red Bull. And then... well, we know how he's season turned around from the time pen was put to paper. Funny that.

Mark seriously considered leaving F1 at the end of 2012. He was very, very close to giving it away. But decided to give it one more year after having a chat with good friend Mateschitz. When he decided enough was enough, Mateschitz was the first from the RBR camp that he called. Not Horner. Not Newey. And certainly not Marko.

Mark has a good relationship with Dietrich. They have been mates for a long time, and have other business interests outside of F1. Maybe it had something to do with Mark staying as long as he he did at Red Bull?? Maybe not. That's another question to put to Webber when the time is right.

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Old 22 Sep 2013, 17:45 (Ref:3307584)   #52
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Don't know. That's a question for Mark. Maybe it has something to do with the contracts he makes with Dietrich Mateschitz? Webber's contract (which is based on a handshake between him and Mateschitz by the way) with Red Bull is said that he gets bonus payments for points finishes. Red Bull is his best opportunity for points finishes. So why not hang around and make the most of it I guess.
So what your saying is, he sold his soul to the devil ?

If anything that Malyasia showed us, it's that if Mark manages to get in a race winning position, the team will allow it to happen.

What I don't understand is, as your suggesting, the team hamper Mark's car, why don't they do it to the tune of 2-3 tenths a lap? Why do they engineer it so that Mark is so slow that the likes of Fernando, Kimi, Lewis etc get in front of him ?
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Old 22 Sep 2013, 17:48 (Ref:3307587)   #53
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I suspect Red Bull will still sponsor him personally when he does sportscars next year.
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Old 22 Sep 2013, 17:56 (Ref:3307597)   #54
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I suspect Red Bull will still sponsor him personally when he does sportscars next year.
It would be a wise move for both parties.
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Old 22 Sep 2013, 17:56 (Ref:3307598)   #55
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Vettel could get injured and his chances of being world champion would suddenly become realistic. Or more likely that's the best seat he can get even if he's playing second fiddle to Vettel.

It seems the team prefer Vettel, perhaps because just simply he's a better bet on the track and they've celebrated with him more. Webber is liked by DM. I'm talking here about subtle, implicit biases that stack up, no conspiracy or malevolence to undermine Webber neccesary. Also development processes over the years will tend to favour Vettel, again as he's the better bet so they'll take into account his preferences more than they might Webber when designing any new car so the car might suit him less and less and this disparity might become more slowly pronounced as the years go by. I think this is what happened to a degree at Mclaren with Coulthard gradually losing out over the years.
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Old 22 Sep 2013, 17:59 (Ref:3307603)   #56
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No different to what they do at Ferrari or Lotus. They go with the driver who delivers week in week out.
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Old 22 Sep 2013, 19:11 (Ref:3307666)   #57
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No different to what they do at Ferrari or Lotus. They go with the driver who delivers week in week out.
But by doing that they effectively destabilise the driver in a way that can precipitate under-performance, effectively worsening the situation and creating a lack of confidence in the teams willingness to treat him equally or fairly.

Either way it is counter-productive and destructive in a mild way.
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Old 23 Sep 2013, 03:51 (Ref:3307946)   #58
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There has to be a reason that Vettel is so much faster than everyone at the moment. Things picked up with the recent tyre changes, so that seems to have helped him.

Perhaps Mark is too hard on the car, or Mark has to push it 110% to get the same speed that Vettel gets by going at 90%. It could be that if they only have two of one part then Vettel gets the better one due to his position in the championship but I doubt it would be often.

If the gap between Vettel and Mark was huge but the gap between the rest of the field and Vettel was small then I'd suggest Mark was slow. So I have to figure it is just because Vettel is fast and make a car that is built to the same regs go faster.

Being someone that watching cycling, there is always some scepticism though that the car has some 'performance enhancement' somewhere though...
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Old 23 Sep 2013, 08:22 (Ref:3308015)   #59
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But by doing that they effectively destabilise the driver in a way that can precipitate under-performance, effectively worsening the situation and creating a lack of confidence in the teams willingness to treat him equally or fairly.

Either way it is counter-productive and destructive in a mild way.
Yet Mark, and Felipe in Ferrari's case, come back for more.
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Old 23 Sep 2013, 09:54 (Ref:3308073)   #60
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Yet Mark, and Felipe in Ferrari's case, come back for more.
If you want to race for even a remotely competitive car what other option do you have?
The no.2 RBR or Ferrari is still better than a Sauber, a Williams or a Caterham
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Old 23 Sep 2013, 11:17 (Ref:3308120)   #61
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Yet Mark, and Felipe in Ferrari's case, come back for more.
Two VERY different situations, and two different contracts. One was told, and he knew he would be playing number two, and signed on. One was told, and he believed he was equal number one, and signed on.

If you want to compare Felipe and Mark, at least Ferrari have been upfront and have made it clear to both drivers who is number one. Red Bull on the other hand, have always said both drivers get equal status, but have favoured one (at least since their junior driver was promoted). If RBR didn't pretend that Mark had equal status, it wouldn't have been as disruptive I believe. They should've been upfront and told Webber he was number two. Better than Webber telling the world over the radio what most of the F1 world knew anyway.

Why would Red Bull favour their development driver over a driver that had nothing to do with the RBR driver development programme? If Mark beat Seb to a WDC, that would have made a mockery of their driver development programme. The best image for Red Bull Racing's junior programme was to make their junior driver win almost everything. Not the outsider. Even if the outsider happened to be the better driver.

Without a doubt, I believe Mark was the better driver in '09-'11. I feel midway of 2011, something changed with Mark. I have no doubt that if he could have, Mark would have left F1 at the end of 2011. But the hunger was still there to be an F1 race driver. That hunger kept him coming back for more until his mind was made up for him, and not the other way around. He is definitely leaving F1 way too early.



Anyways, this thread is about Ricciardo vs Ricciardo, so....
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Old 23 Sep 2013, 11:26 (Ref:3308127)   #62
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Yeah....................................Felipe who?
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Old 23 Sep 2013, 19:49 (Ref:3308326)   #63
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Felipe Vettel. Sebastian's long-lost Brazilian third cousin, twice removed (from any thought of being permitted to compete against him...... ).
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Old 24 Sep 2013, 01:00 (Ref:3308473)   #64
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Without a doubt, I believe Mark was the better driver in '09-'11. I feel midway of 2011, something changed with Mark. ....
Seriously Dude?

Vettel v Webber
Year__Quali___Wins___Pnts____Champ Posn
2009_15-2____4-2____84-71__­­__2-4
2010_12-7____5-4____256-242­_­_1-3
2011_16-3____11-1___392-258__1-3
2012_10-9____5-2____263-179__1-6
2013_13-0____7-0____247-130__1-5

In 2008 Vettel finished 8 in WDC driving an STR – Webber 11 driving an RBR

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Old 24 Sep 2013, 10:07 (Ref:3308672)   #65
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Seriously Dude?

Vettel v Webber
Year__Quali___Wins___Pnts____Champ Posn
2009_15-2____4-2____84-71__**__2-4
2010_12-7____5-4____256-242*_*_1-3
2011_16-3____11-1___392-258__1-3
2012_10-9____5-2____263-179__1-6
2013_13-0____7-0____247-130__1-5

In 2008 Vettel finished 8 in WDC driving an STR – Webber 11 driving an RBR

There are a few people on this, and other similar threads, trolling this subject. By any measure Sebastian Vettel is something very special indeed (even if you don't acknowledge that he's 'a great'). To claim otherwise... particularly invoking 'conspiracy theories'... is doing nothing more than arguing for the sake of it.
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Old 24 Sep 2013, 11:01 (Ref:3308686)   #66
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Sounds like a recipe for any discussion forum.....
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Old 24 Sep 2013, 22:39 (Ref:3308965)   #67
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And what about a Ricciardo discussion thread ?
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Old 24 Sep 2013, 22:42 (Ref:3308968)   #68
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And what about a Ricciardo discussion thread ?
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Old 25 Sep 2013, 00:40 (Ref:3308998)   #69
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There are a few people on this, and other similar threads, trolling this subject. By any measure Sebastian Vettel is something very special indeed (even if you don't acknowledge that he's 'a great'). To claim otherwise... particularly invoking 'conspiracy theories'... is doing nothing more than arguing for the sake of it.
Good point Davyboy!
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Old 28 Sep 2013, 05:07 (Ref:3310313)   #70
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Watch the on board from Q3 for Vettel and Webber and tell me that both cars are equal. I don't think so. Two very DIFFERENT cars.
Seems as though someone else has noticed the difference in Vettel's car to Mark's car, and even to other Renault powered cars. And he has been brave enough to publish an article about it. Take it away Mr Giancarlo Minardi.

http://www.minardi.it/international/...ukc90dky-dpuf/
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Old 28 Sep 2013, 09:44 (Ref:3310368)   #71
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So, Giancarlo Minardi has found something that 10 other teams in F1 and VET's teammate were too blind to see? Those 10 other teams cry foul once a piece of dirt bounces the wrong way on another competitors front wing but they are not able to pick up TC on one (and only one) car? The FIA is too dumb to find a manipulation in the standard ECU?

I'd rather think that Minardi's most significant finding is that VET was much smoother in that sector. Being smoother allows you to step on te throttle earlier and thus get away quicker. Add to that by being smoother you are faster through a corner in general, you can pick up lots more time.

I wonder why today a 2.5s gap on a very long lap today always results in accusations of cheating, while the same gap over the direct teammate and reognized one of the best ever on the shortest lap in GP racing 25years ago was the best lap ever driven, "godlike". This in particular as Rosberg was suffering from tire wear and holding everyone else up, meaning the gap is larger than it should have been.
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Old 29 Sep 2013, 02:17 (Ref:3310575)   #72
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So, Giancarlo Minardi has found something that 10 other teams in F1 and VET's teammate were too blind to see? Those 10 other teams cry foul once a piece of dirt bounces the wrong way on another competitors front wing but they are not able to pick up TC on one (and only one) car? The FIA is too dumb to find a manipulation in the standard ECU?

I'd rather think that Minardi's most significant finding is that VET was much smoother in that sector. Being smoother allows you to step on te throttle earlier and thus get away quicker. Add to that by being smoother you are faster through a corner in general, you can pick up lots more time.

I wonder why today a 2.5s gap on a very long lap today always results in accusations of cheating, while the same gap over the direct teammate and reognized one of the best ever on the shortest lap in GP racing 25years ago was the best lap ever driven, "godlike". This in particular as Rosberg was suffering from tire wear and holding everyone else up, meaning the gap is larger than it should have been.
Good points!

It would seem that Seb has no business being as good as he is!

"I'd rather think that Minardi's most significant finding is that VET was much smoother in that sector. Being smoother allows you to step on te throttle earlier and thus get away quicker. Add to that by being smoother you are faster through a corner in general, you can pick up lots more time."
[Kempi]


My point in an earlier thread...

Vettel is the most precise driver I have ever seen!

... and I have been around a while now!
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Old 1 Oct 2013, 10:15 (Ref:3311371)   #73
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Autosprint reporting a "strange" noise from Vettel's RB9.

http://autosprint.corrieredellosport...-vettel/10584/


Teams have noticed. Watch this space.
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Old 1 Oct 2013, 10:25 (Ref:3311372)   #74
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^ we don't speak Spanish bro

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/110251

Daniel has nothing to lose..you can always win a title on your debut lol. With the new Regulations I think it'll be quite even with the car layouts, cause it'll be new to Vettel aswell, and being the new team mate, they'll both be learning the car at the same time. Just hope they keep up Dominating F1, I hope he challenges for the title, maybe not gonna happen straight away, but it'll be nice to watch him go in it. I predict a few poles in his debut season with RBR.

Team Redbull baaabbbbbyyyyyyyyy!
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Old 1 Oct 2013, 20:40 (Ref:3311644)   #75
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^ we don't speak Spanish bro
It's in italian.
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