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Old 8 Oct 2013, 00:16 (Ref:3314351)   #1
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Driver Weight Parity - Time to Introduce

It is high time that the FIA took driver weight out of te equation as a performance differentiation in F1.

The cars minimum weight should be set without the driver.

Then the driver and his equipment's weight should be set at say 90kg with all competitors ballasted to be equal.

(Pedants welcome to substitute mass for weight above!)

Hulkenberg being excluded from drives on this very basis.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns26429.html
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Old 8 Oct 2013, 06:31 (Ref:3314425)   #2
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They are doing that with the current driver plus car weight limit. This was introduced in the 90s IIRC. However there is still some benefit to being lighter due to the ability to 'tune' the car with ballast.
The cars used to be significantly lighter and all drivers required ballast in the car. KERS has meant that this isn't quite true now and next years rules make the situation even worse.

Ballast in the driver, not car? Is there a safety issue here? Can't think of one, but it might be better to place the ballast in the car. Still could be done to the 90kg you suggest. Perhaps you stipulat where in the car, or driver the ballast had to be. To stop lead bum implants.

Are there other benefits to the current car plus driver? It is just one rule (that can be broken leading to disqualification), whereas you'd have two rules car minimum and driver minimum weight. Shouldn't make a difference, but it might have save a few?

Quite like the idea.
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Old 8 Oct 2013, 10:29 (Ref:3314525)   #3
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Wouldn't it just be better to round it off to a nice even figure like 700 kgs? As much as I've admired Anthony Davidson, I don't think that he should be in the running for the seat that Hulkenberg should be getting.
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Old 8 Oct 2013, 22:25 (Ref:3314853)   #4
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Ballast in the driver, not car? Is there a safety issue here? Can't think of one, but it might be better to place the ballast in the car. Still could be done to the 90kg you suggest. Perhaps you stipulat where in the car, or driver the ballast had to be. To stop lead bum implants.

Are there other benefits to the current car plus driver? It is just one rule (that can be broken leading to disqualification), whereas you'd have two rules car minimum and driver minimum weight. Shouldn't make a difference, but it might have save a few?

Quite like the idea.
Good thinking to avoid the lead bum implants!

Stipulate exactly where on the wheel base the weights have to be carried, next to the driver, and a height above the floor for the ballast centre of mass, to make the size of the driver of as little importance as possible.

Hope Button and the GPDA get this legislation up as soon as possible, hopefully before next year!
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Old 9 Oct 2013, 00:10 (Ref:3314884)   #5
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Good thinking to avoid the lead bum implants!

Stipulate exactly where on the wheel base the weights have to be carried, next to the driver, and a height above the floor for the ballast centre of mass, to make the size of the driver of as little importance as possible.

Hope Button and the GPDA get this legislation up as soon as possible, hopefully before next year!
I know that the total weight of the car has nothing much to do with a drivers weight, but at least these two regulations (now and also for next season) give some indication of the tolerances required in order to make the car legal using ballast.

4.2 Weight distribution : For 2012 and 2013 only, the weight applied on the front and rear wheels must not be less than 292kg and 343kg respectively at all times during the qualifying practice session. If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, it will be weighed on a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.


4.2 Weight distribution : For 2014 only, the weight applied on the front and rear wheels must not be less than 314kg and 369kg respectively at all times during the qualifying practice session. If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, it will be weighed on a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.
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Old 9 Oct 2013, 00:37 (Ref:3314897)   #6
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I know that the total weight of the car has nothing much to do with a drivers weight, but at least these two regulations (now and also for next season) give some indication of the tolerances required in order to make the car legal using ballast.

4.2 Weight distribution : For 2012 and 2013 only, the weight applied on the front and rear wheels must not be less than 292kg and 343kg respectively at all times during the qualifying practice session. If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, it will be weighed on a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.


4.2 Weight distribution : For 2014 only, the weight applied on the front and rear wheels must not be less than 314kg and 369kg respectively at all times during the qualifying practice session. If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, it will be weighed on a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.
After further thinking prompted by your post Marbot, it would only be necessary to set the height of the driver ballast, and then set the wheel weights for the empty car with and without the driver and his ballast.
The ballast weights would have to be clearly marked and unboltable for the checks to be carried out.

This would prevent a team with say a 40 kg driver; unlikely; from carrying an extra 34 kg of batteries / generators compared to whoever is running the 74 kg Hulkenberg!

The cockpit size should also be stipulated to accommodate drivers like Justin Wilson, and pedal box dimensions for their feet.

The driver's size should absolutely not be a performance differentiator imo!
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Old 9 Oct 2013, 09:32 (Ref:3315035)   #7
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i wonder if the solution is to fit the ballast that makes up the difference in a place that doesn't improve the car's handling at all and to have 3 or 4 places that it can be fitted. that position is chosen randomly by the scrutineers on thursday before the race so it's nothing but an inconvenience for the teams to work around and adapt to.
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Old 9 Oct 2013, 13:13 (Ref:3315187)   #8
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Tubby Hulk no prob for Lotus.

Boullier:

"I prefer to have talent and let my engineers work on saving weight in the car," Boullier told AUTOSPORT.

"It is true that 10kg on paper is roughly three tenths of a second, but the target is to at least be on the weight limit. And then, you don't have this issue anymore."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/110466
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Old 9 Oct 2013, 16:37 (Ref:3315280)   #9
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This is simple to do.

You put some sort of removable secure pocket/holder inside the cockpit where lead weights can be secured.

After the race the driver and weights are weighed together and must be above e.g. 90kg.

No different to horse racing handicap rules where they put lead weights in saddle pockets.
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Old 9 Oct 2013, 21:35 (Ref:3315435)   #10
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No different to horse racing handicap rules where they put lead weights in saddle pockets.
Time to start calling drivers "jockeys".
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Old 9 Oct 2013, 21:44 (Ref:3315437)   #11
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
This stuff has been going on in bike racing for years, mainly in the smaller classes

But it still holds sway. 125's were the first to use it and it made things much better, then last year (after Marquez romped the series and used his lowish weight to max advantage) it was introduced in Moto2, but guys like redding still sufer against lighter guys as they can carry more speed leant over and accelerate slight better and tuck in more.

It lead to guys like Scott and a few others having to have insane and rather dangerous diets to stay light and this should be the MAIN reason why it is banned forver in any motorsport, encouraging that kind of actions to gain advantage is simply pathetic and should be utterly outlawed by making weight parirt totally equal to the heaviest driver, just like cameras and camera pods etc are on cars and bikes too.

its not hard really is it
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Old 10 Oct 2013, 00:19 (Ref:3315498)   #12
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This stuff has been going on in bike racing for years, mainly in the smaller classes

But it still holds sway. 125's were the first to use it and it made things much better, then last year (after Marquez romped the series and used his lowish weight to max advantage) it was introduced in Moto2, but guys like redding still sufer against lighter guys as they can carry more speed leant over and accelerate slight better and tuck in more.

It lead to guys like Scott and a few others having to have insane and rather dangerous diets to stay light and this should be the MAIN reason why it is banned forver in any motorsport, encouraging that kind of actions to gain advantage is simply pathetic and should be utterly outlawed by making weight parirt totally equal to the heaviest driver, just like cameras and camera pods etc are on cars and bikes too.

its not hard really is it

Good points here Chunder.

Another concern in light of your post is the driver's increased susceptibility to injury and making mistakes due to the extreme diet.

As you say "its not hard really is it", and it certainly is really unfair!

I see even Christian Horner commented that if the rules kept Hulkenberg out of F1 then F1 was doing something very wrong!
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Old 10 Oct 2013, 01:09 (Ref:3315515)   #13
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dsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
as well as setting a minimum driver weight maybe they should impose a minimum driver or cockpit volume. Cars should be able to comfortably accomodate a 1.8m tall 90kg driver.
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Old 10 Oct 2013, 11:50 (Ref:3315700)   #14
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as well as setting a minimum driver weight maybe they should impose a minimum driver or cockpit volume. Cars should be able to comfortably accomodate a 1.8m tall 90kg driver.
Agree they should set the internal dimensions of the cockpit, across the hips over the knees and including the width and height over the pedals.

Justin Wilson is 1.93 m tall and the Hulk is 1.84 m tall and weighs 74 kg!

Guess we need to push for more!
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Old 12 Oct 2013, 02:14 (Ref:3316536)   #15
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Current driver weights and heights.




How much of the difference between Webber and Vettel is just weight and size?
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Old 12 Oct 2013, 07:32 (Ref:3316600)   #16
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Guess we need to push for more!
Agreed, in that case make it suitable for a 1.9m driver and any ballast should be in the drivers seat.
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Old 16 Oct 2013, 22:01 (Ref:3318657)   #17
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Agreed, in that case make it suitable for a 1.9m driver and any ballast should be in the drivers seat.
I obviously agree with you dsg, and set weight to about 90 kg.

I am really surprised that more people here, and at the FIA, don't see driver weight parity as a major issue, particularly in this era of performance parity legislation!
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Old 17 Oct 2013, 13:24 (Ref:3318933)   #18
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It shouldn't surprise anyone that several jockey's are keeping an eye on the outcome of this matter.

Android F1 drivers....that's my solution.

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Old 17 Oct 2013, 15:14 (Ref:3318977)   #19
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Vettel can't be that light surely? Needs a good square meal if he is.
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Old 17 Oct 2013, 16:55 (Ref:3319033)   #20
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Rumour has it that Vettel has freed up some space in his body by removing a few of his vital organs, muscles, etc, and has replaced them with bags of helium. It's also rumoured that his bones are now the same kind that birds have and the hollow spaces in them are also filled with helium.

When asked about the legality of this, Christian Horner replied that, "Vettel takes his competitivity very seriously and that it's no laughing matter."
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Old 17 Oct 2013, 17:41 (Ref:3319055)   #21
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haha

for me i'm conflicted on this issue. its pretty common for most sports to have an ideal body type and good or bad that often means some people who have talent dont get a chance to prove it.

obviously sad for Hulk but is his weight and height the real issue? for me he has shown the skill to prove he belongs but hasent his bigger problem been lack of personal sponsorship?
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Old 17 Oct 2013, 22:20 (Ref:3319221)   #22
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Vettel can't be that light surely? Needs a good square meal if he is.
Must admit, thought he looked heavier than that!

Think there may be some truth in Marbot's post above!
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Old 17 Oct 2013, 22:23 (Ref:3319225)   #23
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haha

for me i'm conflicted on this issue. its pretty common for most sports to have an ideal body type and good or bad that often means some people who have talent dont get a chance to prove it.

obviously sad for Hulk but is his weight and height the real issue? for me he has shown the skill to prove he belongs but hasent his bigger problem been lack of personal sponsorship?
Guess RBR won't be pushing too hard for any weight changes!

Although to his credit Christian Horner, said that if Hulkenberg could not be accommodated in F1 then "we are doing something very wrong!"
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Old 18 Oct 2013, 03:38 (Ref:3319297)   #24
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http://www.pitpass.com/50046/A-weighty-problem

Hamilton to chop his nuts off!
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Old 18 Oct 2013, 10:33 (Ref:3319397)   #25
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obviously sad for Hulk but is his weight and height the real issue? for me he has shown the skill to prove he belongs but hasent his bigger problem been lack of personal sponsorship?
This is perhaps where people who flog weight reduction stuff can help out. Hulkenberg sponsored by 'Slim fast' being just one possibility.
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