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Old 27 Aug 2014, 10:33 (Ref:3448071)   #251
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Originally Posted by helgi View Post
If DTM bosses keep killing the series with tons of silly technical and sporting regulations then even Alonso and Rosberg won't help to save it.
As for the sporting regulations: I think they'll totally abandon mandatory pitstops for 2015, especially after the Wickens farce at Spielberg. Just one set of tires throughout the whole race, where those, who manage their tires the best, get rewarded.

As for the technical regulations: In hindsight, I would have gone for a LMP2 platform, with BMW/Mercedes/Audi bodykits on top of it. The international compatibility would have been far greater than the compatibility they have with SuperGT right now. It could have also saved costs, if the manufacturers decided to ally with an established prototype manufacturer such as Oreca, Zytek and so on (Knowing "our" manufacturers, I bet they would have built their own LMP2 cars, though). And perhaps, it would have slightly opened the door for private teams, because a platform like LMP2 allows for a customer program.

However, the decline of DTM already started in 2006, when Opel left the series, yet the series bosses kept running the series as always, leading it into the stale, dull product we have today. The fact that BMW joined DTM was just pure luck for the series, in my opinion.
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Old 27 Aug 2014, 11:37 (Ref:3448095)   #252
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As for me, I should say, since mid-90s I really liked DTM much. But new DTM is a bit strange to say the least. It's too corporative, miles away from "fresh" racing. I know that today racing itself is far away from that state it was in 70s, but to me it was the best time.
Today every 10's of a second costs millions euro so bosses do not want to loose entries and keep standardizing regulations. In general a silhouette formula in a nowadays meaning is a quite simple thing - and Scandinavian championship with KIA-BMW-Volvo is a good example, I think.
But to me a silhouette must be a highly tuned version of a road car. You just get the bodyshell and modify it keeping the shape of the silhouette - not using a spaceframe as a main structural element, keeping producing based roof, floor, pillars. Those cars that are used in DTM now are "wrong" silhouettes - they are just show cars. And the fact that they have common chassis and almost a common engine is so depressing. Where's the variety? Is it really too expensive for today racing?

Last edited by helgi; 27 Aug 2014 at 11:38. Reason: And yes, privateers were the main reason DRM was so good.
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Old 27 Aug 2014, 11:58 (Ref:3448109)   #253
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As for me, I should say, since mid-90s I really liked DTM much. But new DTM is a bit strange to say the least. It's too corporative, miles away from "fresh" racing.
I agree that DTM is too corporate nowadays. While the DTM is undoubtedly a very professional (Sometimes too professional) series, it's also quite bland in its presentation, on and off track.

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I know that today racing itself is far away from that state it was in 70s, but to me it was the best time.
The question is of course, if those "good times" in the 70's really existed or if they are just the product of a selective imagination. I don't mean to attack you, I'm just asking a philosophical question . What I want to say is: Every decade in racing had its ups and downs and even today, there are great racing series, such as the GT Masters or BTCC or V8 Supercars etc.

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Where's the variety? Is it really too expensive for today racing?
I've once read a thesis in another forum that claimed that DTM was basically a tax-saving excercise. Looking at some of the sponsors involved (BMW Bank, Audi Ultra and such), I tend to agree. I guess the manufacturers just want to spend the right amount of money, in order to save taxes. Plus, if they spend more money or even make some money, it wouldn't be financially viable for them anyone. In the first case, because it'd be too expensive, in the second case, because they would have to pay taxes then.
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Old 27 Aug 2014, 12:46 (Ref:3448125)   #254
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I wish I understand all that "economical" stuff with taxes but I'm afraid I'd better explain why actually the plane is flying rather then deal with that money questions.
As for "that times" I know, there's some degree of "the trees were taller and the grass was greener" but we shouldn't underestimate the TV impact. TV needs a show. F1 bosses understood it in 1980 and began building their empire that nowadays is known as a closed society. And DTM goes that way. What was epic "that days"? You could use the same engine in F2, DRM - and train your drivers in both championships. One week-end you had a F2 race and other - a DRM race, so drivers could compete in different circumstances. And today? You have a dull number of 10 races with the same teams, the same drivers. Like a long-timed soap opera with super short episodes. Some years ago you were able to discuss different technical decisions and so on. Today you have nothing to talk about. Just sit down, watch a 1-hour TV show - and that's it. There's no wish to chat, to write here, at 10-10th - it's the same if you would discuss some evening TV talk-shows. Is there any reason to do that? I suppose, no. Of course, today we have an opportunity to watch every single race, but isn't the price for that a bit high?
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Old 27 Aug 2014, 14:56 (Ref:3448178)   #255
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What was epic "that days"? You could use the same engine in F2, DRM - and train your drivers in both championships. One week-end you had a F2 race and other - a DRM race, so drivers could compete in different circumstances.
Theoretically, you could still do so today. DTM cars are similar to GP2 or FR3.5 cars. In fact, Christian Vietoris ran DTM and GP2 in 2011. Unfortunately, he retired from GP2 in favour in DTM, as he's had some potential in open-wheelers in my opinion. But I guess being paid in DTM means more than paying for GP2.

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Of course, today we have an opportunity to watch every single race, but isn't the price for that a bit high?
I don't think so. As I've said, there are still plenty of exciting racing series around and all of them have TV contracts, yet have no or few adjustments for TV. Most adjustments just involve race lengths and such, but not gimmicks or any other things. On the other hand: Racing doesn't draw as much TV viewers as it used to anymore. Even F1 has suffered a loss in ratings, no doubt fueled by moving further and further to pay TV. Maybe casual fans are oversaturated by racing? Then again, we need the casuals, as they are paying the bills for racing. Not just by purchasing tickets, but also by generating interest into the product, by making it worthwhile for the mainstream media to cover a series, by making it worthwhile for big companies to place their advertising on the race cars. I think people underestimate what impact casual viewers can have on a sport.

Another thing bothering me, is how we don't have much information about the 2015 season. There are some rumblings about a change in regulations, but not many rumours about drivers or tracks for 2015. That's sad in my opinion and to be honest; it doesn't give me much hope for the future of the series :/
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Old 27 Aug 2014, 15:28 (Ref:3448189)   #256
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Personally, I keep calm about calendar as it's quite easy predictable - 10 rounds, the same as this year. We can write tons of post with our favourite racetracks that should have a DTM round but it's just waste of time. No Dijon or Spa. As for me I would like to see a proper flugplatzrennen in the rain. More variety and so on. But, of course, it's just a thought.
As for the drivers - it's known that everybody are put in their places by 3 great bosses. And their choices are not clear sometimes. As a rumour I can say that Roman Rusinov would be a great adding to Audi squad. For the rest - would be great to see more drivers who compete somewhere outside of DTM as Maxime Martin does. But teams are so "independent" that Mr.Moser and his colleagues have no clue whom they are going to work with until March. I really watch DTM as a show now, so have less expectations over a sporting matters. Just some rumble at some week-ends, unfortunately.
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Old 27 Aug 2014, 18:47 (Ref:3448268)   #257
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I agree that DTM is too corporate nowadays. While the DTM is undoubtedly a very professional (Sometimes too professional) series, it's also quite bland in its presentation, on and off track.
In what way would you like to see it less 'professional' then? I quite admire the series and its professionalism.

I do admit that more needs to be done to make it exciting though and I think part of that is having a couple more race weekends (12 would stop things quieting down too much) and a bit more 'buzz'.
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Old 28 Aug 2014, 09:31 (Ref:3448448)   #258
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With all the money the manufacturers put into DTM I really don't understand why they have not a series like V8 Supercars. Okay the racing in Down Under is also not always great but in general much better as DTM. Also there is hard racing between the teams, where DTM is BMW vs Audi vs Mercedes.

I think if they ran DTM like V8 Supercars, so sort of same cars, allow rivalry between teams, mix of sprint and endurance races, etc. I think DTM would be very popular in Europe, F1 would be not happy with that series.
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Old 28 Aug 2014, 09:50 (Ref:3448453)   #259
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In what way would you like to see it less 'professional' then? I quite admire the series and its professionalism.
Mostly that they shouldn't insist on handing out penalties like a bunch of stereotypical Germans. Like at the race at the Red Bull Ring: I wouldn't have penalized Wickens or Green, because they were running at the front of the field and made the race exciting. Once Green and Wickens were penalized, the race became boring as hell. DTM also needs more of "rubbin' is racing", which NASCAR has cultivated. In short, they should put entertainment above any "rules". After all, rules are there to be broken.
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Old 28 Aug 2014, 10:01 (Ref:3448459)   #260
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Mostly that they shouldn't insist on handing out penalties like a bunch of stereotypical Germans. Like at the race at the Red Bull Ring: I wouldn't have penalized Wickens or Green, because they were running at the front of the field and made the race exciting. Once Green and Wickens were penalized, the race became boring as hell. DTM also needs more of "rubbin' is racing", which NASCAR has cultivated. In short, they should put entertainment above any "rules". After all, rules are there to be broken.
Here in the Netherlands we call that deutsche Gründlichkeit.
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Old 28 Aug 2014, 20:21 (Ref:3448631)   #261
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If there're some true independent teams then there won't be any DTM in its present form. Cars are still too expensive I think. As for different types of events - it's a long wished idea for many fans. But big bosses know better what DTM needs in this current condition.
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Old 29 Aug 2014, 13:20 (Ref:3448844)   #262
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As for the technical regulations: In hindsight, I would have gone for a LMP2 platform, with BMW/Mercedes/Audi bodykits on top of it. The international compatibility would have been far greater than the compatibility they have with SuperGT right now. It could have also saved costs, if the manufacturers decided to ally with an established prototype manufacturer such as Oreca, Zytek and so on (Knowing "our" manufacturers, I bet they would have built their own LMP2 cars, though). And perhaps, it would have slightly opened the door for private teams, because a platform like LMP2 allows for a customer program.
I agree with regards to having LMP2 chassis with manufacturer bodywork. However, the most stupid part of the current DTM is that they shove their technical regulations to GTA (sans the engine part where Super GT goes for I4) in hopes of crossover races and international alliance. So if DTM changed to LMP2 cars with bodywork, that means Super GT would be the last series having DTM-style regulations.

While Super GT complied with their regs, they got better racing in both competitiveness and entertainment, all while DTM stuck with boring racing. Not only that, their delusional grandeur got the better with them as plans to expand to United States is in limbo. Honestly, the series needs a takeover to someone like NASCAR or GTA. However, the former would just fold them 'cause their stock car racing is being threatened while the latter would screw it up unless the language barrier is broken.
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Old 5 Sep 2014, 03:25 (Ref:3450440)   #263
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In Argentina, journalists discuss crashes after each race. There are penalties, so they complaint about how harsh or weak they were.
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Old 14 Sep 2014, 12:53 (Ref:3453225)   #264
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The good news is, we have another German DTM champion. The bad news is, Joe Public doesn't know his name and is unlikely to know his name anytime soon.

Also, I find it unusual that we're a couple of weeks away from the penultimate round of the season, yet there aren't any news about the 2015 season. No rumoured drivers, no rumoured venues, only some rumblings about potential rule changes. But apart from that: Nothing!

EDIT: And it gets worse when journalists like George East, who should be close to DTM (But doesn't seem to be covering DTM for TCT this year...), doesn't have any infos for next year.

Last edited by DS"; 14 Sep 2014 at 13:01.
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Old 14 Sep 2014, 18:58 (Ref:3453305)   #265
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In Wittmann, Wehrlein and Vietoris Germany is lucky enough to have three of their own and very bright talents who can be the stars of the shot for the next decade.
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Old 15 Sep 2014, 11:28 (Ref:3453533)   #266
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So I guess everything will remain the same next year, the schedule, the rules, the drivers, the teams, the venues, the lot. Yaaaaawn. Wonder will Petrov keep his seat in the Merc camp and whether they will drop Zandvoort again, as the championship is decided, the next two rounds' poll will be pathetic.
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Old 16 Sep 2014, 11:33 (Ref:3453881)   #267
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Petrov finished 12th, best result in the series. Not bad at all.
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Old 16 Sep 2014, 16:55 (Ref:3454005)   #268
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Petrov finished 12th, best result in the series. Not bad at all.
'Not bad', but he's still the slowest driver in the series and the only one yet to score any points.
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Old 16 Sep 2014, 19:52 (Ref:3454052)   #269
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'Not bad', but he's still the slowest driver in the series and the only one yet to score any points.
True, but spinning that another way, the fact that former champion Gary Paffett is only 4 points ahead of Petrov means he hasn't been too bad
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Old 16 Sep 2014, 20:03 (Ref:3454053)   #270
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In the last race he wasn't the slowest
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Old 22 Sep 2014, 21:54 (Ref:3456740)   #271
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So I guess everything will remain the same next year, the schedule, the rules, the drivers, the teams, the venues, the lot. Yaaaaawn. Wonder will Petrov keep his seat in the Merc camp and whether they will drop Zandvoort again, as the championship is decided, the next two rounds' poll will be pathetic.
How about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTM.com
ITR e.V. has announced several unbelievable changes for the 2015 DTM season. First of all, the three major Japanese manufacturers have announced that they will field three cars each.

o- Honda will race NSX with drivers Frédéric Makowiecki, Jean-Karl Vernay and Bertrand Baguette.
o- The Lexus RC F will be driven by Oliver Jarvis, Mike Conway and Andrea Caldarelli.
o- Nissan will have Oliver Turvey, Olivier Pla and Lucas Ordóñez running the GT-R.

To accommodate the 30-car grid, cars will be split into two 60 km sprint races on Saturday, whereas the Sunday feature race will be 150 km. The Sunday grid will be determined alternating sprint race and qualifying results.

In addition, the calendar will be expanded to 13 races. It will featuring the traditional six races in Germany, as well as seven legendary venues: Spa-Francorchamps, Zandvoort, Silverstone, Donington Park, Le Mans, Monza and Red Bull Ring.

Last but not least, DTM and Super GT will share track at the ADAC Nordschleife Masters in early September. The 300km race will have two drivers per car, with the rest of the field comprising Supercup, Germany, France and VLN Carrera Cup entries.
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Old 23 Sep 2014, 01:49 (Ref:3456771)   #272
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How about this?
Originally Posted by DTM.com
ITR e.V. has announced several unbelievable changes for the 2015 DTM season. First of all, the three major Japanese manufacturers have announced that they will field three cars each.

o- Honda will race NSX with drivers Frédéric Makowiecki, Jean-Karl Vernay and Bertrand Baguette.
o- The Lexus RC F will be driven by Oliver Jarvis, Mike Conway and Andrea Caldarelli.
o- Nissan will have Oliver Turvey, Olivier Pla and Lucas Ordóñez running the GT-R.

To accommodate the 30-car grid, cars will be split into two 60 km sprint races on Saturday, whereas the Sunday feature race will be 150 km. The Sunday grid will be determined alternating sprint race and qualifying results.

In addition, the calendar will be expanded to 13 races. It will featuring the traditional six races in Germany, as well as seven legendary venues: Spa-Francorchamps, Zandvoort, Silverstone, Donington Park, Le Mans, Monza and Red Bull Ring.

Last but not least, DTM and Super GT will share track at the ADAC Nordschleife Masters in early September. The 300km race will have two drivers per car, with the rest of the field comprising Supercup, Germany, France and VLN Carrera Cup entries.
Guuuaauu excellent!!! I like this news, but where do you get this information?
Dtm and Super GT in Nordschleife? Are you sure? I would love this.
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Old 23 Sep 2014, 05:16 (Ref:3456803)   #273
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Its not on DTM.com so I guess it's a well-written piece of fan-fiction.
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Old 23 Sep 2014, 17:02 (Ref:3456928)   #274
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Good story even though it's fan-made! Unfortunately, the saddest part is that those corporate bigwigs plus ITR won't accept it...
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Old 24 Sep 2014, 12:42 (Ref:3457167)   #275
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Superb science fiction!
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