[DTM] 2014 DTM speculation, rumours and news

[DS"]

Originally Posted by bella

i'd love to know of some big name german drivers who actually want to do dtm but who are being ignored because they'd prefer to go for the younger guys. right now, germany doesn't actually have any big young talents (unless i'm being really dumb). whose fault is that??

It's the manufacturers fault, because they don't to push more homegrown drivers. Hell, BMW has even sent Dirk Werner away from DTM for 2014. As for other German talents: We have Daniel Abt, Sven Müller or Lucas Wolf. That's not really much, so there is something going wrong with pushing upcoming German talents. But then there are also GT and Touring Car veterans like Jörg Müller, Dirk Müller, Lucas Luhr, Markus Winkelhock, Christopher Mies, Christopher Haase, Luca Ludwig and many more. So in my opinion, it's really the fault of the manufacturers, because they don't want to push more native drivers.

Good examples would be the V8 Supercars or the NASCAR Sprint Cup, where the grid are relatively homogenous in nationality and both series are huge successes.

the thing is, guys like nico and antonio felix da costa, like it or not, are the future of motorsport. it's a real coup for the series that these two guys have ended up there. they need to be quicker than f1 in realising that the shape of the series has changed and make the most of it.

If they're the future of motorsport, then they should go somewhere else like IndyCar or WEC. It's like those Gypsies from Romania or Bulgaria. They all seem to want to go to Germany. But why? Germany ain't that rich and DTM ain't gonna guarantee them a career in F1. Christjian Albers and Paul di Resta have only been the exception to the rule that the DTM is pretty much a career grave for aspiring open-wheel drivers.

Also, "future of motorsport" or not, I'm pretty sure that the average German racing fan doesn't care about these drivers and if he doesn't care about them, he won't buy tickets for races or watch DTM on TV. So unless these billywhatstheirnames start marketing themselves to the German audience, I highly doubt that DTM will ever be a meaningful series. Instead, it'll always a manufacturer-financed commercial.

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by bella

nico mueller takes filipe albuquerque's dtm drive:

http://tentenths.com/news/showentry.php?e=3933

i know it's not quite the exciting signing a lot of people are hoping for, but the guy is textbook audi and he'll be an excellent addition. perhaps he's not the quickest over a single lap, but he's a very smart guy and really put in some excellent drives in formula renault 3.5 over the past 2 years.

Good news for BMW, they've signed one of the quickest guys available. The other great guy without a seat is Robin Frinjs and made tests for Audi. I don't remember now anybody better out there.

[bella]

Originally Posted by DS"

If they're the future of motorsport, then they should go somewhere else like IndyCar or WEC. It's like those Gypsies from Romania or Bulgaria.

i know you're only making a comparison, but i stopped reading right here.

the glory days are no longer. it's time to move on and adapt. or it'll end up like the btcc.

if you think daniel abt is the future of german motorsport then german motorsport may as well pack up and go home. i can't comment on your other two examples (sven mueller looks like he's got a bit to go yet), but marvin kirchhofer is considered to be a very promising young driver and has already tested with audi this winter.

these are global brands, and the "german" in "german touring cars" merely refers to the nationality of the three brands involved. as such it's way better for the series to have the absolute best talent driving their cars and showcasing their brands.

suggesting they should just be sticking with german drivers smacks of the same protectionist attitudes the french have. and look where their national racing series are at the moment.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by bella

i know you're only making a comparison, but i stopped reading right here.

Which is too bad, because I had actually another argument below. If you didn't like my tone, then I apologize for that.

the glory days are no longer. it's time to move on and adapt. or it'll end up like the btcc.

The BTCC is in a good shape. A good TV deal, a variety of cars, plenty of teams involved and lots of british talent in this series. In fact, the "glory days" of Supertouring was what almost killed the BTCC. If DTM was more like the BTCC, or if BTCC-spec series was started in Germany, I'd certainly be happy.

these are global brands, and the "german" in "german touring cars" merely refers to the nationality of the three brands involved. as such it's way better for the series to have the absolute best talent driving their cars and showcasing their brands.

But is Bruno Spengler really marketable for BMW? Is really known enough in Germany, so BMW can market his success in their core country? Perhaps you can only showcase your brand, if you have well-known drivers driving for it.

suggesting they should just be sticking with german drivers smacks of the same protectionist attitudes the french have. and look where their national racing series are at the moment.

Their GT series is doing fine. I can't say the same for the other series though. But I don't know enough about the French series to say if their protectionism was at fault for the decline of their auto racing scene.

[bella]

Originally Posted by DS"

The BTCC is in a good shape. A good TV deal, a variety of cars, plenty of teams involved and lots of british talent in this series. In fact, the "glory days" of Supertouring was what almost killed the BTCC. If DTM was more like the BTCC, or if BTCC-spec series was started in Germany, I'd certainly be happy.

i think i'd agree that there's a good opportunity for a btcc spec series in germany, but in my opinion the dtm should never aspire to become that. it is far bigger and far better. i agree that some of the previous young driver choices have been questionable where they've taken name or gender over ability, but i believe they currently have found a good balance between established names and decent young talent. personally i would happily see some of the journeymen disappear in favour of german motorsport heros, but not at the expense of the youngsters to keep them on their toes.

Originally Posted by DS"

But is Bruno Spengler really marketable for BMW? Is really known enough in Germany, so BMW can market his success in their core country? Perhaps you can only showcase your brand, if you have well-known drivers driving for it.

that's a good example of your point, it has to be said. i think like f1, dtm has a few "legacy" drivers whose biggest selling point is their experience in the cars and category rather than their performance. i don't think it matters necessarily that someone is of a nationality relevant to a country, but more that the driver can appeal to as many countries as possible. that's the advantage of guys like nico mueller - who is entirely fluent in four languages - who can deliver exactly what's required on track but also represent the company in as many markets as possible.

it's a compramise between our two viewpoints. i'm not saying that there should be just one or two big names per manufacturer, but that the young guys are absolutely essential to keep the series moving forward.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by bella

i think like f1, dtm has a few "legacy" drivers whose biggest selling point is their experience in the cars and category rather than their performance. i don't think it matters necessarily that someone is of a nationality relevant to a country, but more that the driver can appeal to as many countries as possible.

To some extent the 'legacy drivers' are those that come into DTM as the young up and coming superstars but for whatever reason never make that step into F1 or whatever their target is/was. Paffet and Green spring to mind as other examples and I guess to some extent now Wickens and Veitoris as well (bit of a Mercedes theme going on!)

[DS"]

Originally Posted by bella

i think i'd agree that there's a good opportunity for a btcc spec series in germany, but in my opinion the dtm should never aspire to become that. it is far bigger and far better.

Really? Is it THAT better? Judging by the on-track product, the BTCC is far superior over DTM.

personally i would happily see some of the journeymen disappear in favour of german motorsport heros, but not at the expense of the youngsters to keep them on their toes.

I could live with that. I can live with some foreign veterans like Ekström or even Spengler. Both bothered to learn German and have some experience in DTM. But I still doubt that Spengler is really known among the average German racing fans. But more on that below.

that's a good example of your point, it has to be said. i think like f1, dtm has a few "legacy" drivers whose biggest selling point is their experience in the cars and category rather than their performance. i don't think it matters necessarily that someone is of a nationality relevant to a country, but more that the driver can appeal to as many countries as possible. that's the advantage of guys like nico mueller - who is entirely fluent in four languages - who can deliver exactly what's required on track but also represent the company in as many markets as possible.

I have the feeling that you misunderstood my point. I talk about a drivers appeal in Germany. After all, the core of DTM IS Germany. It has most fans in Germany, it has the biggest TV ratings in Germany and probably the most media attention in Germany. Yet, Bruno Spengler or even Mike Rockenfeller are hardly known in Germany. Case in point: Sandro Cortese's victory of the Moto3 championship received far more attention in BILD (Germany's most-selling newspaper) than Spengler's DTM victory in 2012. Whereas Cortese got half a page, Spengler just got a short report on the right edge of the page.

I also doubt that the manufacturers do marketing campaigns with their non-German DTM drivers. Or does Mercedes commercials with Gary Paffett for British TV? Where were the BMW ad with Spengler for French/Canadian TV? And surely there have been some ads on Spanish TV with the Spanish DTM drivers, right?

[bella]

Originally Posted by DS"

I have the feeling that you misunderstood my point. I talk about a drivers appeal in Germany. After all, the core of DTM IS Germany. It has most fans in Germany, it has the biggest TV ratings in Germany and probably the most media attention in Germany. Yet, Bruno Spengler or even Mike Rockenfeller are hardly known in Germany. Case in point: Sandro Cortese's victory of the Moto3 championship received far more attention in BILD (Germany's most-selling newspaper) than Spengler's DTM victory in 2012. Whereas Cortese got half a page, Spengler just got a short report on the right edge of the page.

I also doubt that the manufacturers do marketing campaigns with their non-German DTM drivers. Or does Mercedes commercials with Gary Paffett for British TV? Where were the BMW ad with Spengler for French/Canadian TV? And surely there have been some ads on Spanish TV with the Spanish DTM drivers, right?

nah, i was actually just trying to offer the counter positive points. mind you, if you look at the btcc nobody thought any less of giovanardi (sp, it's been a while) or yvan muller or alain menu because they weren't british.

i think the example you give of the bild coverage is more a fault of the newspaper and the organisers marketing. i don't know what the answer is, but it's not going to be fixed by turning the dtm back into an exclusive german thing.

at the moment the dtm has precious few drivers paying for drives, which is generally regarded as a highly desirable way of running a series. the btcc isn't like that at all. in fact it's the other way around. it's like that because no manufacturers want to be involved to the extent that mercedes, audi and bmw are in germany.

the tv advertising example is a red herring, because it's not about selling cars to people really any more. i believe every time bmw survey existing owners motorsport comes out surprisingly low on the list. it's marketing the product (and to be fair, the country) business to business and that sort of thing that matters, if they're still seeing value from that side of the programme then they'll stick with it.

the fans are, as always in the really big manufacturers world, a minor consideration. sad, but true.

bert - fair point about the legacy drivers. though maybe you could argue that if they've not (been allowed to?) saved the world and won the title by now then perhaps they'd be better off farmed out to some of the sportscar projects as a change of scenery. a couple of them really make you think "yes, but why?".

[DS"]

Originally Posted by bella

nah, i was actually just trying to offer the counter positive points. mind you, if you look at the btcc nobody thought any less of giovanardi (sp, it's been a while) or yvan muller or alain menu because they weren't british.

Maybe Muller, Menu and Giovanardi were popular. But then again, they were/are among the best touring car drivers of the world. No comparision to the ten million single seater drivers.

i think the example you give of the bild coverage is more a fault of the newspaper and the organisers marketing. i don't know what the answer is, but it's not going to be fixed by turning the dtm back into an exclusive german thing.

I think a largely German-only DTM will receive more attention in the German press, because German audiences will click easier with homegrown drivers. But even then, DTM needs to do a way better job at marketing the series. Judging by comments from Jens Marquardt, I doubt that the DTM wants to learn anything about that though[1].

the tv advertising example is a red herring, because it's not about selling cars to people really any more. i believe every time bmw survey existing owners motorsport comes out surprisingly low on the list. it's marketing the product (and to be fair, the country) business to business and that sort of thing that matters, if they're still seeing value from that side of the programme then they'll stick with it.

Yeah. The manufacturers hardly want to advertise cars in DTM. I mean, these cars aren't production-based anyway. So it's really the brand that matters. That's really a theme throughout DTM: The individual driver is nothing, the manufacturer is everything. No wonder we rarely see "marque mates" passing each other, unless it's team orders. Not to mention that this attitude is responsible for relatively high number of team orders in DTM.

bert - fair point about the legacy drivers. though maybe you could argue that if they've not (been allowed to?) saved the world and won the title by now then perhaps they'd be better off farmed out to some of the sportscar projects as a change of scenery. a couple of them really make you think "yes, but why?".

This paragraph is pretty much about Gary Paffett in all but name. This guy's racing for 10 years in Germany, yet hasn't bothered to learn a damn word of German! Even Jamie Green has bothered to pick it up! But I guess most drivers prefer picking up the cheques with relatively low work (A race goes for roughly 60/70 minutes and DTM races only 10 times a year) over doing something meaningful like Le Mans, WEC or IndyCar.

[1] When asked about why the press wasn't invited to off-season tests, he claimed that talking to the media would take away too much time from developing the car. Yeah, right. As if you can develop anything in this tight set of regulations.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by bella

bert - fair point about the legacy drivers. though maybe you could argue that if they've not (been allowed to?) saved the world and won the title by now then perhaps they'd be better off farmed out to some of the sportscar projects as a change of scenery. a couple of them really make you think "yes, but why?".

To some extent the drivers have been involved in other projects as well as DTM (particularly Audi) although Rockenfeller has done better in the DTM since dropping the additional commitments. Priaulx and Werner have both gone to sportcars this year from DTM so BMW are shuffling the pack a bit too. Ekstrom has done a bit of rallying and rallycross on the side (carrying his Red Bull sponsorship with him), Paffet obviously has the McLaren simulator stuff to keep him busy (and presumably he wouldn't have got that gig with Mercedes support).

Is it wrong for a driver to see DTM as a career destination with no thoughts beyond that? I wouldn't have thought so - it's a professional championship and offers paid drives so it's an attractive option (especially as some of the drivers have reached a point where their single seater career has stalled - usually for lack of finance to take the next step). I think the DTM grid is generally well balanced - they've got less of the ex-F1 drivers at the moment so maybe the big draw for Joe Public is missing but on the whole the drivers are a good mix of series veterans and young guns.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Is it wrong for a driver to see DTM as a career destination with no thoughts beyond that? I wouldn't have thought so - it's a professional championship and offers paid drives so it's an attractive option (especially as some of the drivers have reached a point where their single seater career has stalled - usually for lack of finance to take the next step). I think the DTM grid is generally well balanced - they've got less of the ex-F1 drivers at the moment so maybe the big draw for Joe Public is missing but on the whole the drivers are a good mix of series veterans and young guns.

But what has DTM to offer? The championship doesn't have a big tradition nor a big standing. It means way more to win a NASCAR Sprint Cup championship or even the BTCC than winning the DTM title. The DTM also doesn't have a big race, unlike plenty of other series. In short: The DTM is just another artificial run-of-the-mill championship, which is as "special" as the millions of GT series we have around the world. Whereas a NASCAR champion becomes a hero to millions of Americans and some sort of mainstream sportsstar, a DTM championship doesn't earn you anything like that. For example, I really doubt that a lot of people would Mike Rockenfeller, if he was walking around in any random shopping center in a larger German city.

Also: Joe Everyman can't indeed be bothered to tune into DTM and that's a huge problem, so the DTM needs drivers Joe Everyman can relate to.

[bella]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Is it wrong for a driver to see DTM as a career destination with no thoughts beyond that? I wouldn't have thought so - it's a professional championship and offers paid drives so it's an attractive option (especially as some of the drivers have reached a point where their single seater career has stalled - usually for lack of finance to take the next step). I think the DTM grid is generally well balanced - they've got less of the ex-F1 drivers at the moment so maybe the big draw for Joe Public is missing but on the whole the drivers are a good mix of series veterans and young guns.

it's a career destination with a lot of young drivers who now have one eye on f1 and another on dtm. but more often than not you don't stay in f1 until you retire, and i don't think anyone's really expecting to stay in dtm for a decade either. it's only really ferrari in f1 that offers the same "job security" as being a factory dtm driver. it's absolutely one of the top opportunities out there. i'd go as far as saying that the audi factory drives in dtm and lmp1 are the holy grail, second to absolutely none.

and it's that reason why i can't stand the negative attitude towards the youngsters who ARE making it into the dtm fold. these guys are outrageously good at what they do. it's a thing of pride that they're more keen on dtm than they are on f1 nowadays.

[bella]

Originally Posted by DS"

Maybe Muller, Menu and Giovanardi were popular. But then again, they were/are among the best touring car drivers of the world. No comparision to the ten million single seater drivers.

with the greatest of respect, the single seater drivers who are getting into dtm this season are pretty much the best there is out there. only kevin magnussen has been "lost" to f1. last year was a bit strange, i'm not sure what they were doing with pascal werhlein but he must have really impressed them in testing and he is german after all. tambay is still a mystery though.

that's the only reason i can understand why you're concerned to be honest, that there's been some very obscure choices from single seaters in recent years. but let me reassure you now, calado, mueller and felix da costa are all very worthy of their drives.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by bella

it's absolutely one of the top opportunities out there. i'd go as far as saying that the audi factory drives in dtm and lmp1 are the holy grail, second to absolutely none.

Audi LMP1 drivers yeah. DTM drivers? Not so much.

and it's that reason why i can't stand the negative attitude towards the youngsters who ARE making it into the dtm fold. these guys are outrageously good at what they do. it's a thing of pride that they're more keen on dtm than they are on f1 nowadays.

"More keen on DTM", as if! More like sitting into a made nest. Most of these young formula drivers are just racing ten times a year, getting some German money yet they don't put any effort in marketing themselves to the audience or pushing the series more forward in terms of draw value. Hell, only few of them have even learned German and it's pretty important to speak German in order to deal with German media!

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by DS"

Audi LMP1 drivers yeah. DTM drivers? Not so much.

I'm enjoying reading this discussion too much to throw in my two cents, so I'll throw in Allan McNish's instead, and say that the Scot agrees with the above.
He hated the DTM, couldn't wait to leave it, and only stayed because Audi didn't have a free LMP drive for that year.

I'll get my coat...

[FIRE]

If drivers would be the only problem DTM has it would be healthy...

[DS"]

Originally Posted by FIRE

If drivers would be the only problem DTM has it would be healthy...

Exactly! DTM has plenty of problems at the moment: The lack of any star driver, not even a German hero like Bernd Schneider was. The lack of mainstream attention, decling TV ratings and on-track attendance numbers. I mean, just take a look how empty Hockenheim was in the last season. Yet, the people behind the DTM pretend that everything's fine and dandy, which it's not!

[AxelF]

Originally Posted by DS"

Exactly! DTM has plenty of problems at the moment: The lack of any star driver, not even a German hero like Bernd Schneider was. The lack of mainstream attention, decling TV ratings and on-track attendance numbers. I mean, just take a look how empty Hockenheim was in the last season. Yet, the people behind the DTM pretend that everything's fine and dandy, which it's not!

I can only say "WOW" to this discussion - DS, i have to say, you are more than right!

Problems of DTM
- drivers are fast, but have no personality
- on track compeition is very complicated to follow, but not dramatic
- a lot of nonsense (DRS, Pit Stops etc.) around, but no real duels
- only one race a weekend (better two, or 3 like BTCC)
- no independent teams, that are keen on racing against the top teams
- marketing is pointed towards the team "its fast and loud - wow"

Maybe it is a problem, that i know the DTM, when it was famous (1988-1992 - best years), so i compare it against it.
Even with different car concepts they made better racing than now...even if the manufacturers are complaining all the time). Even Super Touring made a better competition on track (maybe less power and aerodynamics are the solution).

I know, that a lot of the spectators like to see fast and loud cars with big wings - but i want to see a close race between the cars and the drivers. They should drive like hell to get an advantage over the others - not waiting for pit stops or blue flags! Or waiting for the soft tyre....

Drivers personalities: it should be a good mixture from stars and young talents. Maybe we need drivers, that are able to have their own opinion, and do their point. I remember guys like Johnny Cecotto or Steve Soper, who are not everybodies darling, maybe driving sometimes too hard or being angry against others. Racing is also life, not only a directed hollywood movie!!!!

I am very unhappy, about the opininons of the directors from Mercedes, Audi, BMW and ITR! They think, that they have good product (its a race series, not a bubble gum!), and don't feel to change something. Such a bad attitude, to not change the bad points really.

I am sorry, that i may not have found the right words for my complaining. I hope, you understand my points nevertheless.

[NaBUru38]

Rockenfeller just won the DTM title. Lotterer was FIA WEC vice-champion. Buhk, Schneider and Götz won the Blancpain. What else do German fans need?

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by AxelF

no independent teams, that are keen on racing against the top teams

Drivers personalities: it should be a good mixture from stars and young talents. Maybe we need drivers, that are able to have their own opinion, and do their point.

Both things are linked. If there were privateers, then drivers would be much more important that manufacturers. In a works team, drivers are team members rather than selfish racers.

Still, there's VLN and ADAC GT Masters for that kind of racing.

[Metzo]

Originally Posted by AxelF

Problems of DTM
- no independent teams, that are keen on racing against the top teams

are they even welcome in todays dtm? the last real independent teams in modern dtm was mamerow in 2001

[AxelF]

We don't need champions - we need racers! Drivers, that are loved or hated...
Like Schumacher, Alsono, Raikönnen!

I just remember Hans-Joachim Stuck, who came with a tyrolian hat on the podium...its just a small thing, but it makes a driver loveable or sometimes hateable...

[DS"]

@NaBUru38: For once, guys like Lotterer, Buhk and Götz should race in DTM. I'm a patriotic German and just like the Bundesliga sees some of Germany's best footballers competing against each other, I want to see some of Germany's best race drivers competing against each other in DTM. But at the moment, I doubt that the current German line-up is the best Germany has to offer.

[AxelF]

Originally Posted by Metzo

are they even welcome in todays dtm? the last real independent teams in modern dtm was mamerow in 2001

No - they are not welcome and it is even not possible to get to qualify, do a good job and maybe become works team!
Thats very sad.

I remember to be a big fan of the MM Diebels Team...they raced a BMW M3 in 1990 with Frank Schmickler. The car was so beautiful and they did a good job, so Schmickler could get his hands on good results...1991 they got a BMW works driver (Christian Danner) and some support.
Unfortunately they got problems in this season, so they could not do better.
But it was a nice story...

Even Phoenix (Audi works squad) was a former independent team in german Super Touring. Did a good job and got a works offer from Audi.
Now they are DTM champions

Even the Ruch brothers from Berlin were very famous with their spectacular Ford Mustang. It was not successful, but the fans loved them...

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by AxelF

I know, that a lot of the spectators like to see fast and loud cars with big wings -

That's the best thing about the DTM for me - the cars are truly spectacular to watch, see and even feel as they go past. You can get away with less exciting racing if the cars are incredible on their own (think F1 for the ultimate example). If you want less extreme cars then there's BTCC to watch for that.

Originally Posted by AxelF

Drivers personalities: it should be a good mixture from stars and young talents. Maybe we need drivers, that are able to have their own opinion, and do their point. I remember guys like Johnny Cecotto or Steve Soper, who are not everybodies darling, maybe driving sometimes too hard or being angry against others. Racing is also life, not only a directed hollywood movie!!!!

The problem here is that drivers reaching the level of DTM, F3, Renault 3.5, GP2 etc etc have all been through media training - and that seems to involve removing their personality to some extent. Drivers are continually coached in saying and doing the 'correct' thing. There are some exceptions and occasionally the mask will slip and a driver will actually say what they're thinking - but then the teams PR people step in and try to smooth things over. The obvious examples here are Kimi who'd rather not talk to journalists and doesn't try to hide the fact or Maldonado who appears to be a bit of a head case.