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10 Apr 2014, 21:16 (Ref:3390894) | #26 | ||
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Gratuitous photos from Mallory Park testing ... |
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11 Apr 2014, 06:15 (Ref:3390971) | #27 | |||
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Even spare wheel in original compartment, but at the end only one of 'nominally same circumference' as two of the fitted wheels. I believe the works Gp2 Capris had a special 'bicycle' wheel to conform to that one! One typical puzzle is bumpers. In early 70s they could only be removed for closed speed events (off public roads) if the particular event regs allowed. Then later on App J allowed removal of said items for all events, then near end of Gp1 went to not even suggesting they could be removed for any reason. So depending on the year of a particular model, it could now need bumpers, or maybe not...... |
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11 Apr 2014, 06:46 (Ref:3390976) | #28 | ||
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The more I read this the compromise of the original CTCRC group1 regs make more and more common sense, you are never going to find a fair common ground for a revised championship with all these little changes over the years what CTCRC had (still have if you remove the plastic windows) was imho as good and as fair as it gets.
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11 Apr 2014, 07:12 (Ref:3390981) | #29 | |
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... also can you imagine the challenges of post race scrutiny in period, let alone today [when the class straddles so many periods]. Is it any wonder that rumors abound of all sorts of illicit tweaks to these cars back in the day.
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11 Apr 2014, 07:51 (Ref:3390991) | #30 | |||
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Yes, eligibility scrutineering must have been really interesting in period....... |
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11 Apr 2014, 09:28 (Ref:3391011) | #31 | ||
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Yes it did move on from the original concept when I joined the club in 2005 and I think some of the changes since then have been detrimental.
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11 Apr 2014, 10:46 (Ref:3391027) | #32 | ||
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But from memory , for Gp1 rallying we always had to have the bumpers fitted . They were allowed to be removed for racing use as long as they were a separate item [ not part of the body ]. But as far as I can remember [ you can spend a lifetime reading up old FIA regs ] all trim & seats had to be retained . Even if you had to move it to fit the cage , it still had to be kept in the car . Which I think is where the Gp1 & 1/2 BTCC regs were different |
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11 Apr 2014, 11:38 (Ref:3391037) | #33 | ||
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Yes, you are quite right, for Gp1 rallying bumpers were always reqd. Events held on circuits or where no public road was ventured on were where the fluctuations in requirements occurred.
Regarding the trim, there is App J of whatever period telling us one thing, then that needs to be cross referenced with latest App K to see what is allowed now. Defo rear seat(s) can be removed to facilitate cage fitment, and holes cut in dash etc for cage to pass through if necessary. But no mention of removing carpet, front passenger seat, headlining........... So my interpretation is that to gain an HTP a car would have to be presented with all that except for rear seat. Ironically my cage design allows rear seat to remain in place, even if it can't be used! |
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11 Apr 2014, 11:58 (Ref:3391043) | #34 | ||
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Mike, from my memories of rules/regs from the 60s, please don't try to assume that there was any logic in the MSA's "bibles" of those times.
Even though the cars that I helped to prepare were all competing in the Special Saloon catagory, where nearly everything was allowed, there were some really stupid requirements. One was that a rear seat had to be included, although the front passenger seat could be removed as well as virtually everything else inside the car. The really stupid part was that the rear seat did not have to be the original, and for all the years that I raced, my back seat comprised of a half inch thick foam sheet cut to size covered in ultra thin black vinyl. The scrutes never once even so much as commented on it, even though it didn't really serve any purpose. |
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11 Apr 2014, 17:39 (Ref:3391208) | #35 | |||
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I've also found some info on the Australian GpC version of Gp1 that CAMS ran. Looks like they (CAMS) issued their own homologation papers for individual models based on manufacturers papers, with their own added interpretations, and the cars still run to same regs today. They did and still do require full interior trim including rear seats. Sounds clear and simple compared with our muddied waters...... |
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13 Apr 2014, 07:45 (Ref:3391847) | #36 | ||
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With regards trim levels, again it was the blue book that gave most guidance for what you could remove. I remember a scrutineer wanting to see seats, parcel shelves, linings, carpets, ashtrays and so on on my GP1 Dolomite last year. As far as I am aware the car never had them fitted... ever...
The blue book gave the local supplementary regs (national rules) for their local races BSCC or BTCC in UK. Production saloons were different to Gp 1. Prod saloons had to retain far more and couldn't modify much beyond a standard car. I have seen various copies of annual blue books and this is where I think you need to concentrate Mike, after you have considered the mechanical homologated Gp 1 spec of the car which inevitably means no carpets, seats, sound proofing, radios, heaters, air con, spare wheel, jacks, tool roll etc... otherwise it may as well be production saloons. |
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13 Apr 2014, 09:53 (Ref:3391878) | #37 | ||
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As Anthony says arguably the Blue Book provides the evidence that the car would have raced with the modifications in question, such as carburettor, exhaust manifold etc. so there's no need to conform directly to the App K requirements.
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13 Apr 2014, 11:03 (Ref:3391899) | #38 | ||
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I'm on the case as far as blue book is concerned, and will report back after some research!
The dilemma is HTP inspection, where FIA regs seem to take precedence- but maybe not. I will ask the question! |
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13 Apr 2014, 11:11 (Ref:3391908) | #39 | ||
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This is an extract from the HTP advice on www.msauk.org
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26 Apr 2014, 07:20 (Ref:3398378) | #40 | |||
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I see there are 4 Dolomites in the historic touring car race at the Donington Historic Festival, more than any other type, I think. |
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19 Jul 2014, 08:01 (Ref:3435378) | #41 | ||
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For years Poul Heickendorf was the guru among Danish group 1 Ford Escort RS2000s, mainly through driver Erik Høyer. His RS was listed with 188 hp during the 1982-1983 seasons and by the end-of-season sales adverts Flemming D. Olsen advertised his '84-car with the same number.
In the same vein Tony Dickinson claimed 196 bhp in his period Autosport sales adds for his 1982 British Saloon Car Championship RS2000 - a car build for that season only! Jesper Last edited by Jesper OH; 19 Jul 2014 at 08:27. |
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19 Jul 2014, 12:11 (Ref:3435435) | #42 | |||
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19 Jul 2014, 14:20 (Ref:3435503) | #43 | |
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As someone that started racing in Group One when it was introduced in 1972, the car had to be completely standard (including bumpers and trim etc) - except that optional equipment was allowed if listed in the compulsory RAC homologation form (I still have the one for my 998cc Austin Cooper).
The next year it became Production Saloons, and I believe had to be more standard. |
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19 Jul 2014, 16:44 (Ref:3435551) | #44 | ||
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Quite right, Tim. If an owner wants to get HTP papers for their car, the FIA still demand that it only has homologated tuning parts, and yet we know that period National championships allowed relaxations in some areas. For organisers, it's going to be extremely difficult to form a grid of comparable or equal cars, but if a race is to be run to FIA regulations then (so I am told) the cars should be to homologated specification only, even if in period they weren't!
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20 Jul 2014, 09:22 (Ref:3435743) | #45 | ||
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And then there is the problem that some series organisers specify App J from from outside the period in question . That problem exists in Historic rallying , where FIA App K lists 1981 J , for cars that were about in the 70s .So there are some cars exactly as they ran on Internationals in that time which no longer comply with current rules . All in all , its a nightmare . |
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20 Jul 2014, 13:48 (Ref:3435848) | #46 | ||
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And App J allowed naff all for Gp1!
A nightmare indeed..... |
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20 Jul 2014, 13:52 (Ref:3435852) | #47 | ||
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As stated, it depended on the ASN. Effectively, any car built to RAC MSA regs, will also comply with the European version of the period. It was done to make sure cars could compete in various championships. As I'm sure you know.
Hence Group 1.5 or 1 1/2 or 1B. All the same. I don't believe, although I stand to be corrected, any country ran to strict Group 1. There were the production saloon championships and they, possibly, were really group 1. Nonetheless my Rover is now restored to the same condition it ran in 1981. |
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20 Jul 2014, 15:14 (Ref:3435889) | #48 | ||
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20 Jul 2014, 15:20 (Ref:3435891) | #49 | ||
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I paid for them a while ago. Nobody told me I haven't got them.
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20 Jul 2014, 15:37 (Ref:3435896) | #50 | ||
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