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Old 9 Jan 2010, 23:16 (Ref:2610748)   #1
Gerry Taylor
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Group B MG Metro 6R4 History

This may be of interest. Its in the Motor Museum on the strip in Las Vegas. It is for sale. I wonder if anyone recognises the reg No?
I took this in 2007.
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Old 10 Jan 2010, 17:43 (Ref:2611097)   #2
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Gerry, the one in your post is a Rothmans liveried 6R4, not a Grp A Turbo, is that right?
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Old 11 Jan 2010, 13:26 (Ref:2611602)   #3
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Gerry, the one in your post is a Rothmans liveried 6R4, not a Grp A Turbo, is that right?
I was just about to post exactly the same comment!
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Old 11 Jan 2010, 13:37 (Ref:2611609)   #4
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Looks like its in "Rothmans" colours. I wonder if it came from the David Sutton Museum? He had several rally cars on display of that era, including a collection of quattros, but I think the owner decided/ needed to sell them off.
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Old 11 Jan 2010, 20:47 (Ref:2611862)   #5
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It certainly looks like it's in Rothmans colours- although the registration number doesn't ring bells as being one of the original Dave Richards-run Rothmans cars (C749LFM, ex-works/Computervision C869EUD, and C84RBD amongst others I think)
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Old 11 Jan 2010, 22:56 (Ref:2611957)   #6
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It's a very late reg. A DVLA check shows it as being registered for in mid '90 and not taxed since late '90, with a 3000cc engine. Weren't the 6R4s long gone from front-line rallying by then?
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Old 12 Jan 2010, 21:32 (Ref:2612417)   #7
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Good evening all, apologies for my somewhat lengthy recent absence, and here's wishing you all a belated Happy New Year!...

...if anything's going to get me posting again it'll be a 6R4!

G177 AWL actually started life as one of the 'production' Clubman versions, but was later modified by Bill Gwynne Engineering (BGE) in 1989/90 for a client in Guatamala as a Rothmans liveried left hand drive tarmac rally car replica - so no actual David Richards Autosport (DRA) history I'm afraid. You are indeed correct with your Rothmans registration numbers, KA - although DRA only borrowed C869 EUD from Cowley for Billy Coleman to use on the 1986 Shell Donegal Rally.

G177 AWL was exported out there by BGE along with Harri Toivenen's Unipart liveried ex-works car C96 KOG for the guy to have a little fun with around his plantation, apparently! Lucky Guatamalian!

Both cars were advertised for sale on an American classic car website for quite some time up until the last year or so - G177 AWL for a stonking $200,000 (approx £124,000 now), and C96 KOG was $250,000 (approx £155,000 now)!

I reckon that's where the photo above was taken as they are located on the Las Vegas strip - am I right Gerry?

Hope that helps.
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Old 23 Feb 2010, 01:25 (Ref:2638737)   #8
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i've read somewhere that C84RBD had a DRA chassis number when it was sold for rallycross. Does anyone know the number and the other DRA numbers that were issued?
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Old 23 Feb 2010, 10:59 (Ref:2638940)   #9
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Drop me a PM giving me a few more details, and I might be able to help when I get home this evening. I'd really need to know what your reasons are for asking though - which I think is pretty understandable under the circumstances.
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Old 23 Feb 2010, 13:09 (Ref:2639009)   #10
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Looks like the 6R4 bits have been split off from the end of the Metro Turbo thread- that's cool, we've got a 6R4 thread....

Think this is the only 6R4 pic I've got to hand right now, though there are plenty more I can post- mostly rallycross, and a few questions raised by them.

Pic is Guy Williams at a Lydden rallycross meeting, 1990/91-ish I think

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Old 23 Feb 2010, 14:14 (Ref:2639075)   #11
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Indeed, a dedicated Metro 6R4 thread now - been meaning for a while to start one, but never really got around to doing it KA. Can see me spending lots of time here now, and to start off with...

Guy Williams' car was the ex-Gary Midwinter car, Reg No D574 UXF that he rallied during the late 1980s - as well as racing it at the Metro 6R4 races at the Birmingham Superprix and Silverstone. I'll dig out a photo or two later.
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Old 23 Feb 2010, 14:37 (Ref:2639087)   #12
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The Guy Williams car served some time with Terry Briggs 5-6 years ago then the engine/body were split and sold to an Irishman.
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Old 23 Feb 2010, 15:02 (Ref:2639097)   #13
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Peespeed started a thread specifically about the Irish rallycross 6R4s over in the Rallying & Rallycross section HERE! - although there doesn't seem to be much activity.
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Old 23 Feb 2010, 18:19 (Ref:2639230)   #14
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G177 AWL actually started life as one of the 'production' Clubman versions, but was later modified by Bill Gwynne Engineering (BGE) in 1989/90 for a client in Guatamala as a Rothmans liveried left hand drive tarmac rally car replica - so no actual David Richards Autosport (DRA) history I'm afraid. You are indeed correct with your Rothmans registration numbers, KA - although DRA only borrowed C869 EUD from Cowley for Billy Coleman to use on the 1986 Shell Donegal Rally.

G177 AWL was exported out there by BGE along with Harri Toivenen's Unipart liveried ex-works car C96 KOG for the guy to have a little fun with around his plantation, apparently! Lucky Guatamalian!
You mentioned the C96 KOG car, surely it is the same C97 KOG as driven by Pete Slights for the 1988 MG Metro 6R4 Trophy? Or is it just a different car?

Same for the C869 EUD car was later used in 1989 for Pete Lloyd in his C874 EUD car well?

I want to check if my research of the Metros' partipication at the Birmingham Superprix is correct!
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Old 24 Feb 2010, 08:55 (Ref:2639555)   #15
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Both Reg Nos C97 KOG and C874 EUD were correct for Pete Slights and Peter Lloyd's Birmingham Superprix entries - the other numbers stated were different cars using the same Reg No sequences, often referred to as 'sister cars'.
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Old 24 Feb 2010, 11:22 (Ref:2639623)   #16
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Pic is Guy Williams at a Lydden rallycross meeting, 1990/91-ish I think

That shell looks like a Belga livery?

Could the car or shell have originally been a Belgian/Euro contender for someone like Robert Droogmans?
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Old 24 Feb 2010, 12:06 (Ref:2639651)   #17
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Nice idea 'chunterer', but the car has NO previous Belga history I'm afraid, so I assume that Gary Midwinter simply copied the distinctive livery for his rally car as he liked it.

Marc Duez actually drove the Belga liveried Schmidt Motorsport MG Metro 6R4 in Europe, not Robert Droogmans. The latter drove a Belga liveried RS200 run by the RAS Sport team, so you were along the right lines 'ish'.
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Old 24 Feb 2010, 12:12 (Ref:2639654)   #18
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What is somewhat annoying about the Schmidt Motorsport run cars of Marc Duez (Belga) and Per Eklund (Clarion) is that there are no records of any chassis numbers for which car was which. Armin Schwartz also used one on the 1986 3 Stadte Rallye (Three Cities Rally), before he was really known in WRC circles.

You might suggest that it was simply a case of noting the registration numbers, but they too were switched between the different liveried cars! In all there were four different registration numbers used by the team, three UK - C729 HOF, C730 HOF, C805 FFC and the sole German N-CM 467.

Even Schmidt state that they have no records of each individual car!
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Old 24 Feb 2010, 12:18 (Ref:2639661)   #19
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You beat me to it- I was just looking for pics of the Duez/Belga 6R4. IIRC, he usually appeared on tarmac events in Europe, but did do the '86 RAC.

http://www.autotitre.com/forum/up/31dbc981c8.jpg

http://www.forum-auto.com/uploads/20...1132668826_6r4

http://www.forum-auto.com/uploads/20...lga_metro1.jpg
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Old 24 Feb 2010, 12:37 (Ref:2639679)   #20
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A nice photo on that first link KA, but the 2nd one doesn't work for some reason?

Indeed he did do the 1986 RAC Rally, but even though the car appeared in Belga livery, it was in fact a 'works' run 6R4 from Cowley that he used for this event, Reg No C868 EUD.

Marc (co-driven by Willy Lux as per usual) also used a Cowley run 6R4 on the 1986 Rally of Portugal (C870 EUD), 1986 Hunsruck Rallye (C97 KOG), and he used the same RAC car (C868 EUD) on the 1986 Attilio Bettega Memorial Trophy at Bologna Motor Show as well.
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Old 24 Feb 2010, 12:48 (Ref:2639687)   #21
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Just trying to re-cap who the main teams running 6R4s internationally were, apart from the works/Computervision cars

As we've just established, Konrad Schmidt ran Duez, with Belga sponsorship and Per Eklund's Clarion car- A couple more pics from Marc Duez's own website:
http://www.marc-duez.be/galeries/ima...-Giet-(19).jpg
http://www.marc-duez.be/galeries/ima...-Giet-(28).jpg

Eklund (86 RAC)
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimag...RAC%2086-P.jpg

Dave Richards ran the Rothmans-sponsored cars in the UK and some European events for Jimmy McRae and Billy Coleman
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2475/...42efa86235.jpg

RED (Rally Engineering Development) ran David Llewellin and Harri Toivonen on the British Open series- Llewellin got Computervision sponsorship like the factory cars late-season, but started the year with a plain white car with just ARG logos. D750PDM in the pic is the car he used late-season in Computervision colours (new car from Ulster onwards?)
http://www.crspics.com/onlineshop/po...in-ulst-85.jpg
Toivonen's was Unipart-backed
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_hK4B3XA1DSM/SA...ro_jyska86.jpg
(though i think this is the works car he used on the 1000 Lakes, rather than his RED car- the original RED cars were registered in the C9xxLCA series I think?)

Did they also run Didier Auriol's 'Export 33' car in France?

Think RED also ran a car on the National Championship in the UK for Willie Rutherford- in blue Sanyo colours I think. RED boss Geoff Fielding also had his own 6R4- debuted on the 85 RAC with the works cars?

Apart from that, a whole lot of privateers, Ken Wood (Golden Wonder-sponsored, like his Rover), David Gillanders and many more in the UK

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Old 24 Feb 2010, 12:50 (Ref:2639690)   #22
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A nice photo on that first link KA, but the 2nd one doesn't work for some reason?

Indeed he did do the 1986 RAC Rally, but even though the car appeared in Belga livery, it was in fact a 'works' run 6R4 from Cowley that he used for this event, Reg No C868 EUD.

Marc (co-driven by Willy Lux as per usual) also used a Cowley run 6R4 on the 1986 Rally of Portugal (C870 EUD), 1986 Hunsruck Rallye (C97 KOG), and he used the same RAC car (C868 EUD) on the 1986 Attilio Bettega Memorial Trophy at Bologna Motor Show as well.
Thanks- I vaguely remembered he used a Belga car on the RAC, and the next question I was going to ask was whether it was a Schmidt or works car!

I think I might have botched the link for that 2nd pic- I'll have another look

Edit- think it's this one...
http://www.forum-auto.com/uploads/20...668826_6r4.jpg

Also
http://www.forum-auto.com/uploads/20...etro_belga.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2...tro1986pn7.jpg
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Old 24 Feb 2010, 13:26 (Ref:2639709)   #23
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An excellent summary of the 1986 season competitors there KA - top man!

Austin Rover Motorsport or the ARWCT ('Austin Rover World Championship Team') ran their cars from Cowley for the likes of Tony Pond and Malcolm Wilson. Occasionally a third car would be entered for the likes of Marc Duez or Harri Toivenen - the latter on the 1986 1000 Lakes and RAC Rallies as you suggested.

Schmidt Motorsport ran the Belga car for Duez in selected European Rally Championship event, most of which were in Belgium. Eklund's Clarion car was the same, with a bias towards Germany though.

Rally Engineering Developments (R-E-D) ran the Austin Rover Motorsport car C996 LCA (and later Computervision car D750 PDM) for Llewellyn in the British Rally Championship, along with Toivenen's Unipart car C997 LCA. They also ran Willie Rutherford's Sanyo / Comet car C998 LCA on the National series, boss Geoff Fielding in C288 JFM on a variety of individual events, and Roger Clark in the 1987 National series in the ex-Llewellyn car D750 PDM. R-E-D also prepared a car for a Swiss privateer in 1986 but Group B cars were banned before it was delivered to the owner. Clinton Smith acquired this car D749 PDM and used it a year or two later on the British National scene.

David Richards Autosport (DRA, now Prodrive) ran the Rothmans or Racing cars for Jimmy McRae on the British Rally Championship in C84 RBD and C749 LFM, along with Billy Coleman's Irish Tarmac Championship entry C84 RBD. DRA also prepared cars for Swiss driver Jean Luc Thevenod C818 PRP - which he used on the 1986 Swedish Rally and 1986 Criterium Alpin amongst others, and another for Finnish driver Mika Arpianen, also C84 RBD? - but that was rolled heavily on the 1986 1000 Lakes Rally.

Several other instances of the drivers using Cowley cars were; Llewellyn on 1986 Marlboro Port Talbot National Rally in C818 FFC, Coleman on 1986 Shell Donegal Rally in C869 EUD, Toivenen on 1986 1000 Lakes Rally in C96 KOG, Duez on 1986 San Remo Rally in C868 EUD and Alistair Sutherland on the 1986 RAC Rally in C869 EUD.
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Old 24 Feb 2010, 17:52 (Ref:2639856)   #24
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Just had a look at the '86 RAC entry, which has to have been the biggest number of 6R4s ever to start a single rally, at international level at least. I count no less than 13!

4. Tony Pond/Rob Arthur: Works/Computervision (C95KOG)
10. Malcolm Wilson/Nigel Harris: Works/Computervision (C99KOG)
14. David Llewellin/Phil Short: RED/Computervision (D750PDM)
15. Jimmy McRae/Ian Grindrod : DRA/Rothmans (C749LFM)
17. Per Eklund/Dave Whittock : Konrad Schmidt/Clarion (N-CM467)
19. Marc Duez/Willy Lux : Works/Belga (C868EUD)
20. Harri Toivonen/Neil Wilson: RED?/Unipart (C98KOG-works or RED-run car?)
23. Tony Teesdale/Greg Horne: Teesdale/Repco (MT8217-New Zealand entry)
34. Alastair Sutherland/Peter Watts: CBC Motorsport (C869EUD- works-loaned car?)
35. Willie Rutherford/Bryan Harris: RED/Sanyo/Comet (C998LCA)
36. Ken Wood/Peter Brown: Wood/Golden Wonder (261GWC)
37. David Gillanders/Ken Rees: Gillanders Motors/Austin Rover Fleet (C670JSU)
58. Geoff Fielding/John Robinson: RED/Sanyo/Comet (C288JFM)

The 'official' entries (Pond,Wilson, Llewellin,McRae,Eklund,Duez,Toivonen) all appeared on the entry list as 'Austin Rover World Championship Team', irrespective of which team ran the actual car.
Even this armada couldn't couldn't match Pond's 1985 result, but they monopolised the lower end of the top 10- Pond 6th, Eklund 7th, McRae 8th and Llewellin 9th. Wilson was 17th hving lost a lot of time- don't remember whether it was mechanical problems or an 'off'. Neither Duez, Toivonen or any of the privateers made it home

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Old 24 Feb 2010, 18:51 (Ref:2639884)   #25
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How many actual 'works' Cowley/Computervision cars were there?

I reckon on these:

A pair of 'B' registered cars used mid-1985 for the launch of the car and a couple of national events before homologation- B196XUD, B197XUD.
Four cars registered in the 'C8xxEUD' series:- the 1985 RAC pair for Pond (C869EUD) and Wilson (C867EUD), and two debuted on the '86 Monte- C868EUD (Pond) and C870EUD (Wilson)

One car- C818FFC- debuted in Portugal for Pond

Five cars with 'C9xKOG' registrations- 2 debuted in Portugal with Pond (C95KOG) and Wilson (C96KOG), one (C97KOG) debuted on the Scottish for Wilson, and the remaining two in San Remo- C98KOG for Pond and C99KOG for Wilson

Any more?

The works team made its international debut on the '85 RAC, and then did a partial World Championship season in '86- missing the 'fly-away' events outside Europe, (Safari, New Zealand, Argentina, Ivory Coast and Olympus), plus the Acropolis, but taking in a couple of European events outside the WRC- Hunsruck and the Scottish.

Apart from the obviously more specialist events (Safari and Ivory Coast), was the original intention always to skip the 'fly-aways', or was the programme cut back in light of the reliability problems experiences on other events plus the axeing of Group B- I've got a vague memory that the Acropolis entries were cancelled because of the reliability troubles, in favour of a test outing on the Scottish for Wilson?

I'll have a dig through my photos- mostly rallycross from 1989 onwards, but should have a few rally pics as well- Nothing from the RAC or other internationals though

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