Audi LMP1 Discussion

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

There's no real contradiction.

Both the 911 GT1-98 and the CLK-LM are remembered for what they did, and no one can really mention the former won Le Mans without mentioning the latter beat it absolutely every other race it showed up for. Heck, the TS020 is remembered and it couldn't even win the Fuji 1000, but that's besides the issue.

It's rather inherent that a Le Mans Prototype be deemed a success if it wins at Le Mans. You can say it undermines the other races but if you think that they seem insignificant as sideshows to the 24 Hour you should see how utterly meaningless they would be otherwise.

I remember that the FIA GT1 had restrictors totally favorable to the aspirated engines (mercedes). Le Mans Had restrictors a few favorable to the Turbo engines (Toyota and Porsche).
Also in Le Mans Toyota and Mercedes were faster than the Porsche.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

It's rather inherent that a Le Mans Prototype be deemed a success if it wins at Le Mans.

It's a moniker. Do Daytona prototypes measure the success of their season solely on the 24 hours of Daytona? Does an Indycars season depend entirely on the Indy 500?

LMP became an official class, very shortly after the death of the WSC, for two cars that never raced (in that guise) outside of Le Mans. But the name stuck.

Originally Posted by carbsmith

You can say it undermines the other races but if you think that they seem insignificant as sideshows to the 24 Hour you should see how utterly meaningless they would be otherwise.

Oh, don't get me wrong, they matter to me. I was crushed last year when Toyota lost Shanghai in the way that they did. I'm bemoaning the fact that they hardly matter to the sportscar community in general. If Toyota win the last two WEC rounds, they would clearly be the best team with the best car, but Audi would still be the most successful based on 1 (very important and very long) race.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by msd76

Le Mans has never been kind to Mercedes.

Never? 1989?

Speaking of which, relevant: why Mercedes skipped LM in 1990? I remember reading it was some kind of a boycott related to FIA-ACO battle over whether 24LM should had been part of the championship or not? (Wasn't between 1989-1990) But regardless, they skipped it in 1990 but dominated WSPC like they did in 1989. That would be quite unheard situation now.

From a recent Autosport+ article (subject was the winter calendar): Back in the day, the world sportscar championship really was much more than a collection of races before and after Le Mans. One former winner told me that he regarded the 24 Hours "as just another round of the championship". Such a comment sounds bizarre today, especially when you consider it came from the mouth of a man won Le Mans long before there was a drivers' title on offer in the world sportscar championship.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Toyotats03OUS

That's why the 24 hour of le mans have to be at the end of the calender,,imaging what a race would that be! with all these monsters lmp1 machine sorted out, flawless and perfect set up!..and Epic Race for sure!

WEC needs to be MORE important. That will make it just LESS important. There's no way anybody will care who won WEC that day unless it is the same team that won 24LM.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by deggis

WEC needs to be MORE important. That will make it just LESS important. There's no way anybody will care who won WEC that day unless it is the same team that won 24LM.

We need the 12h of Sebring, we need PLM, we need further great races and great tracks to join the 24h of Le Mans.

[TF110]

You dont need just certain tracks. But you do need an event, not just another round/race. 6hr races are nice, but if something like the Fuji race was 8hrs and titled something like "Pokka 1000" like Sizuka. Then The Nurburgring 1000(mi/km). Not just the same old "6hrs of ..."!

[Alex Langheck]

Originally Posted by deggis

WEC needs to be MORE important. That will make it just LESS important. There's no way anybody will care who won WEC that day unless it is the same team that won 24LM.

This!! The WEC won't go anywhere until attitudes change. Sportscars has to about the season, not one race in June, despite its heritage, etc
A World Championship should always trump 1 race win, even Le Mans. And do you know what; I actually think the importance of Le Mans is overplayed; certainly in the mainstream - the coverage is nothing special. Unless something bad happens....

[GT6]

Unfortunately for the WEC Le mans is the big race and nothing will ever change that, as someone who has now done 29 Le mans and 5 or 6 silverstone and spa races for the fans Le mans is the big race and that goes for the sponsors as well, the WEC is built around Le mans and it will never change

[ger80]

Audi?

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

We need the 12h of Sebring, we need PLM, we need further great races and great tracks to join the 24h of Le Mans.

I agree. PLM was created for these cars but now it's like the party was created for the LMP cars but they no longer show up. For years, I remember the excitement of standing next to cars and looking at every detail and thinking, "This is the car that won Le Mans!" Having races after Le Mans is important. There is something to seeing these cars race on TV or in photos and then seeing them later in person. Somehow, TUSC has got to get back into the show and get the LMPs back to the tracks on a regular basis.

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

We need the 12h of Sebring, we need PLM, we need further great races and great tracks to join the 24h of Le Mans.

This would fix a lot. Right now the only real exciting race is Le Mans. If we had Sebring before and PLM after it would balance things out.

[MyNameIsNigel]

I am told that Audi have or may have to replace the two R18 monocoques before this weekend's race. The reason for such replacement is unclear at this stage.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I am told that Audi have or may have to replace the two R18 monocoques before this weekend's race. The reason for such replacement is unclear at this stage.

Info confirmed by endurance-info.com

Both monocoques have apparently been damaged at Shanghai. Spare tub has been used to rebuild the #2 car. A further tub is due to arrive at 4 am local time to rebuild the #1 car. A lot of work ahead for Audi.

[chernaudi]

All the more reason to modify the cars for next season. Audi weren't involved in any incidents at Shanghai, so I suspect that Audi are changing the tubs due to wear and tear damage that needs to be repaired, and it's stuff that they can't repair on-site.

Could also explain some performance issues at Shanghai, since I though that they should've been faster in some bits than they were, and chassis wear near suspension points not only can cause suspension failures, but also effect the car's handling.

I also wonder because of tub issues this year that Audi may switch back to Dallara for their tubs instead of YCOM (who, interestingly, also built the Elipson LMP1 tubs).

[chernaudi]

There's a pic of the #2 Audi at an advanced stage of rebuild on Sportscar 365

[TF110]

This one?

[chernaudi]

Yep, that's the one.

At least you can see some details, though it seems that the front torsion bars are buried in the front of the chassis and can't be seen from the front.

[MyNameIsNigel]

If there is one trophy that Audi deserve this year, it's the "Mechanics of the Year" trophy. These guys are undertaking a massive job.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

All the more reason to modify the cars for next season. Audi weren't involved in any incidents at Shanghai, so I suspect that Audi are changing the tubs due to wear and tear damage that needs to be repaired, and it's stuff that they can't repair on-site.

Could also explain some performance issues at Shanghai, since I though that they should've been faster in some bits than they were, and chassis wear near suspension points not only can cause suspension failures, but also effect the car's handling.

I also wonder because of tub issues this year that Audi may switch back to Dallara for their tubs instead of YCOM (who, interestingly, also built the Elipson LMP1 tubs).

Could be that Audi have gone a bit too far with the tub design in an attempt to save weight. Too fragile a design maybe ?

As for YCOM, weren't they already involved in the design and/or manufacture of previous Audi LMP1 tubs ? I do recall having read something along these lines on their website.

[chernaudi]

Dallara built every Audi LMP1 tub from 2000-2013. YCOM is new for this year. I think that Audi switched due to Dallara building the Indy Car tubs and instead of the DTM tubs just for Audi, I think that they started building tubs for the whole DTM field with the whole spec chassis deal.

[chernaudi]

This kinda reminds me of the Lotus 79--chassis was stiff and strong enough for the job for a few races, but needed lots of repairs to the suspension mounts frequently due to wear and tear.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

If there is one trophy that Audi deserve this year, it's the "Mechanics of the Year" trophy. These guys are undertaking a massive job.

+1
The mid race Turbo change at Lemans earned them that honor also.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Could be that Audi have gone a bit too far with the tub design in an attempt to save weight. Too fragile a design maybe ?

As for YCOM, weren't they already involved in the design and/or manufacture of previous Audi LMP1 tubs ? I do recall having read something along these lines on their website.

Perhaps, but the previous iterations of the r18 have had lots of tub issues as well. I remember multiple tubs being replaced after incidents at Sebring and road Atlanta. Including a strange one where the front splitter dug into the grass a bit and even with no wall contact the tub was damaged.

Maybe Audi had had lots of tubs to replace because they have had lots of incidents, tub does its job protecting the driver but sacrifices itself perhaps.

[chernaudi]

Audi weren't involved in any offs or wrecks at Shanghai. So I'm thinking that there's stress issues where the suspension points or maybe where the front of the floor bolts to the tub, or Audi are using the repaired tubs from Silverstone that were involved in accidents and the repairs need repairs.

We should all remember the issues that Peugeot had since 2008 with tubs that were re-used after they were repaired in accidents. They had an issue in 2009 during testing at Sebring, and one car DNF'd at LM in 2010 after a repaired suspension mount failed.

Audi could be having the same issues if the Silverstone tubs are the ones that got changed out for new ones at Bahrain.

[TF110]

Do Porsche construct their own chassis? I know Toyota does at TMG. Maybe Audi should look into building a facility to construct their own carbon chassis. It would serve them well and even moreso if they eventually do go to F1.