ALMS 2012 Discussion

[Jonerz]

As it stands right now, any "interest" in Oreca, Wirth etc. from the U.S. that comes from anyone but Cytosport is somebody way out in left field. And I don't think there is anyone out there.

Chris

[TerribleWone]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

With Strakka running an ARX-03 in the WEC next year, could that maybe be a car that Cytosport might run in the ALMS, considering that they've spoken to Nick Wirth and HPD over at least an engine supply deal?

My feeling is that is exactly the option Cytosport is looking to go with assuming that they stick with ALMS next year. Pretty sure under ACO spec the ARX-03 with the HPD 3.4 unit would eat a lola mazda for dinner. That said ALMS will always performance balance and a new HPD machine is a pretty big investment for Greg .P to make given the current climate of sports car racing in North America.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

As it stands right now, any "interest" in Oreca, Wirth etc. from the U.S. that comes from anyone but Cytosport is somebody way out in left field. And I don't think there is anyone out there.

Chris

A while ago there was some talk of Stefan Johansson wanting to run an ARX-01e the rest of this season (if he could get a good deal on a lease) and maybe next season as well.

[Jonerz]

That's true. We'll see how next year shapes up. Heck, we don't know what the series will look like necessarily. I am starting to believe more and more that IMSA will resign with the ACO, though.

Chris

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...p1-equivalency

It seems as though Pickett is saying, fix the rules or don't see me back....

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=1245

[The Badger]

Well , all I can say about that is , if it happens , it serves the ACO right .

To the detriment of the sport , the ACO have complete disregard for balance of performance . 25 million from Dave Richards is no laughing matter , and I completely agree with Pickets sentiments below .


“This sanctioning body [IMSA] has got to do what’s right for prototype racing in America,” Pickett said. “We do not have a 24 hours of Le Mans here. If they want it to be [successful], they need to cast a very wide net and make as many engine and chassis combinations as they possibly can to be as competitive as possible. I told them that as a sanctioning body, you don’t owe me a lot, but you owe me that as an entrant in the top end of this field.

“I can’t go buy an Audi because I tried. I can’t go buy a Peugeot. I cannot buy a real bespoke P1 car. It’s not available,” Pickett added. “If I’m a Furniture Row or a Wood Brothers [in NASCAR], I could go to Roush-Yates or Hendrick and buy that stuff.

“Ninety percent of the time, the Hendrick’s, Childress’ and Roush’s are going to dominate the landscape. But every once in a while, when you allow the rules to be equitable, an entrant like the Wood Brothers or Furniture Row will win when the stars align... All I want is a chance.”

Ive also said before , that the big guns should be forced to sell a certain amount of chassis (2) reasonably to privateers ..... for the good of the sport .

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=1245

Another hollow promise... followed by Audi Grandstanding, followed by someone who doesn't believe the ACO until it actually happens.

There are only so many times you can try and sell someone a pile of you know what before you lose credibility.

[Purist]

i'm not so sure that the gesture from the ACO is hollow. They have to consider that they have engine programs (at least) from Toyota, HPD, and Nissan already. They also have an unhappy Aston Martin in the field. And then there is the confirmed Porsche entry come 2014, plus a few other potential takers in the prototype ranks. AFAIK, these parties are NOT considering diesels for their LMP efforts. Therefore, even from the money point of view, it makes sense to throw something their way, to keep them interested, and/or entice them to further their efforts.

Admittedly, I'm not sure how much difference 40hp will really make, because we don't know the official power figures for a lot of the current machinery, and also because the diesels still have boatloads of torque.

So, such a move probably won't upset the apple cart particularly, saves a bit of face for the ACO, and buys them some time/wiggle room.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Another hollow promise... followed by Audi Grandstanding, followed by someone who doesn't believe the ACO until it actually happens.

There are only so many times you can try and sell someone a pile of you know what before you lose credibility.

Disagree that it is hollow, however Im betting the 40 HP loss wont do a thing to stop the diesel advantage.

[chernaudi]

Info from the Acura/HPD thread does suggest that an ARX-03 may end up in the ALMS next year. Unless a new team is coming in, Cytosport may very well be the best candidate.

And as far as Pickett not being able to buy an Audi for his team, I think he should take it up with Audi of America, who refuse to fund a LMP1 program in the ALMS, in spite of ramping up their advertising in recent ALMS rounds for the televised races, which probably has more to do with advertising their participation in PLM than anything thing else.

However, Audi AG is culpable too for no R15s/R18s in the ALMS, as they pleaded with the FIA and ACO for the ILMC/WEC, and got their wish this year, hence the WEC is basically Audi's "baby" that they fought for like Bella Swan did for Renesmee in Breaking Dawn. After fighting for that for nearly a decade as it's major proponent, does one think that Audi isn't gonna want to spend most of their own motorsports budget for sportscars on it and leave support of the ALMS/LMS to the importers?

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

[...] hence the WEC is basically Audi's "baby" that they fought for like Bella Swan did for Renesmee in Breaking Dawn.

What?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Info from the Acura/HPD thread does suggest that an ARX-03 may end up in the ALMS next year. Unless a new team is coming in, Cytosport may very well be the best candidate.

Just a fantasy, unless Cytosport is the candidate... assuming they even come back.

And as far as Pickett not being able to buy an Audi for his team, I think he should take it up with Audi of America, who refuse to fund a LMP1 program in the ALMS, in spite of ramping up their advertising in recent ALMS rounds for the televised races, which probably has more to do with advertising their participation in PLM than anything thing else.

So Audi NA is responsible for Pickett not being able to buy an Audi, from Audi AG, because Audi NA wouldn't spend the money to fund their own program, while Pickett would out of his own pocket. Astounding logic.

[MitchZ06]

I think he means he should go to Audi NA and say "look, I want a P1 diesel and I've noticed you're doing a whole lot of advertising in the series. You may not want to fund a P1 program but I do, can I please buy a car from you?"

[broadrun96]

You would think Audi NA would at least but Pickett in touch with the right people for a REAL discussion, especially since I have seen the R18 commercial on ABC, CBS and NBC (no cable here). They could be advertising like before with the R15 to a roadcar but they only show the R18, somebody in the PR department must like sportscars or they just have no new models to show off. Still would love a local Audi dealer to add 'come see the R18 at Road Atlanta' to the end of the commercial.

[Audi Racer]

As far as Audi is concerned, The R18 is still new unknown quantity. It doesn't make sense and would just be difficult not knowing how to help cytosport because Audi has just as many questions right now about the R18 that Cytosport could ever have.

Also theres the risk of trade secrets leaking out.

[Purist]

The R8 was pretty damn new when Johanson and Champion got their cars, so what gives?!

It's just a cop-out!

This just reminds me of Alain de Cadenet describing why Ferrari wouldn't sell anyone a customer 312PB, almost 40 years ago.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by Purist

The R8 was pretty damn new when Johanson and Champion got their cars, so what gives?!

It's just a cop-out!

This just reminds me of Alain de Cadenet describing why Ferrari wouldn't sell anyone a customer 312PB, almost 40 years ago.

But the R8 was petrol. Everybody knows everything about petrols. Theres nothing to hide.

The R18's a diesel. Its got tech in it that nobody is suppose to know about. The R18 is actually a neutered fighter jet .

[MitchZ06]

The R18 has a new engine yes, but do you think Audi is still playing guessing games with it? They'd know that thing inside out and I'm sure selling one or two to a privateer to run wouldn't cause any issues at all. Some factories send out a technician/engineer or two to some teams they support anyway so it's unlikely there'd be any issues arising for a privateer running an R18, likewise running a new 908.

Everyone knows everything about petrols? Tell that to Kolles (R10), Oreca (908) and Pescarolo (908)....

[Mal]

I really don't think the diesels should be pegged back further. If anything the petrol cars should have a restrictor break. We saw at Silverstone that the Diesels are barely faster than a 25 year old group C car running in historic racing. You can also see that the lack of speed differentials on the straight is leading to more manoeuvres in the braking zones.

Having said that I dont think that a private team running on old grandfathered car should expect to be competitive with a full works state of the art car. But maybe they should 1 or 2 seconds off the pace rather than 3 or 4 which would mean they would be ready to pounce if the Diesels hit trouble.

The comparison should really be made with a fully modern petrol car like the ARX P1 which alas we haven't seen since Sebring, but was competitive there.

...and I still laugh at Dave Richard blaming the rules for wasting $25 million on the AMR One. That argument would have some weight if his car was competitive with the other petrol cars ... hell it was hardly even competitive with P2 cars.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

I think he means he should go to Audi NA and say "look, I want a P1 diesel and I've noticed you're doing a whole lot of advertising in the series. You may not want to fund a P1 program but I do, can I please buy a car from you?"

Not exactly. Audi AG want the R18 to eventually race in the other "Le Mans" series. But they will only commit to such programs if the regional importers foot most of the bill.

With the LMS ditching LMP1 because of no Audi or Peugeot customer teams and Rebellion and Pescarolo wanting to run in the WEC, the LMS in the short term is a no go.

Audi have, publicly at least, been open to a customer team with the ALMS, but only if Audi of America paid for most of it. Audi of America doesn't want to fund a majority of the program out of their pockets, and since a wealthy team owner or a big sponsor hasn't stepped up to fill the gap, it'll be years, if ever, that Audi make a large scale return to the ALMS unless the WEC implodes.

I don't think that Pickett can foot the bill by himself with the R18, at least for the two car team that Audi Sport seem to be partial to in the current climate (Audi prefered to have at least two cars in the ALMS, even if it meant two different teams, but prefered a single two car team), and I don't think he can get the sponsorship, even with Audi AG/Audi Sport's help to plug the hole the AoA is unwilling to fill.

Audi AG see the WEC as "their" baby, and to an extent, that's right. Audi lobbied the ACO and FIA for something like the ILMC/WEC for years, and only this year they've gotten their wish after Mosley left the FIA and Todt settled some things in F1 before turning his attention to other racing formulas last year, and M. Todt wants the WEC to succeed, having seen what Bernie and Max, along with Balestre, did to the WSC the last few years of it's life.

Audi only want to foot the full bill for their "baby", the WEC, and anything else is largely dependent on the regional importers, and Dr. Ullrich has said as much.

Audi of America doesn't feel like spending money on the ALMS, and Audi AG/Audi Sport hasn't been able to make AoA's management budge. But AoA is in the business of selling cars for Audi in NA, and they've been able to build to Audi's overall record sales pace this year and in every year so far this decade, so Audi can't just sack those guys for not wanting to spend money to pay for an ALMS team.

Even if Audi themselves wanted to sell a car or two to Cytosport, AoA's lack of interest in NA motorsport still would be the big stumbling block, as if there's no Audi of America interest, there's no AoA cash flow, and there's no money for an ALMS team.

Oddly enough, there were rumors of Oreca, then Abt, getting R18s next year in the WEC. Such rumors have since gone quiet, but obviously, Audi France or Audi something else in the case of Abt would pay for a lot of their cost like Audi Sport hoped that Audi of America would've done.

And as far as Audi still learning the R18, Allan McNish said as much after Silverstone, and he attributed the equal performance of both team's cars in the race at Silverstone to testing that both teams have done since Le Mans and Imola.

[Fogelhund]

That's a whole lot of theory... without much behind it.

[haribo]

Originally Posted by Mal

I really don't think the diesels should be pegged back further. If anything the petrol cars should have a restrictor break. We saw at Silverstone that the Diesels are barely faster than a 25 year old group C car running in historic racing. You can also see that the lack of speed differentials on the straight is leading to more manoeuvres in the braking zones.

Having said that I dont think that a private team running on old grandfathered car should expect to be competitive with a full works state of the art car. But maybe they should 1 or 2 seconds off the pace rather than 3 or 4 which would mean they would be ready to pounce if the Diesels hit trouble.

The comparison should really be made with a fully modern petrol car like the ARX P1 which alas we haven't seen since Sebring, but was competitive there.

...and I still laugh at Dave Richard blaming the rules for wasting $25 million on the AMR One. That argument would have some weight if his car was competitive with the other petrol cars ... hell it was hardly even competitive with P2 cars.

This.

With the lower LMP1 top speed we're seeing more and more "dive-bombing" botched overtakes and miscalculations.

You could argue that the LMP1 (especially diesel) drivers should take more care, but I don't want a race to the bottom - with everyone restricted to AMR-One pace...

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

As far as Audi is concerned, The R18 is still new unknown quantity. It doesn't make sense and would just be difficult not knowing how to help cytosport because Audi has just as many questions right now about the R18 that Cytosport could ever have.

Also theres the risk of trade secrets leaking out.

Penske said they came close to a deal to run an R18 (not R15) at Le Mans this year in an interview concerning the Porsche P1.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

The R18 has a new engine yes, but do you think Audi is still playing guessing games with it? They'd know that thing inside out and I'm sure selling one or two to a privateer to run wouldn't cause any issues at all. Some factories send out a technician/engineer or two to some teams they support anyway so it's unlikely there'd be any issues arising for a privateer running an R18, likewise running a new 908.

Yes i do. See >>The McNish Article

The R18 has never even run in America at an official race. What im trying to explain is hard to put in words. Its hard to try to make the R18 a customer car when your still making wholesale changes to it. Its downright inconveneient to have to make al lthe spare parts for all the teams like Muscle Milk and Penske for any updates you make to the R18(Especially if you later decided to scrap the update).....Its really inconvenient to sell an unfinished product and still be developing it. thinking back to the penske porsches and dyson porsches, Dyson wasnt happy with the support they where getting from Porsche which was nonexistent. They got their DFI engines the latest of everyone. when the rs spyder was stopped being developed then it was a customer purchase frenzy(navi team goh, essex, van merksteijn, cytosport etc.)

Same migth be said of acura. The fernandez team got the short end of the stick in the acura camp. They where the last oget any of the upgrades. Highcroft was often the first and considered the factory acura team....

Perhaps audi isnt satisfied with providing an inadequate customer experience? The R8 LMS customer program is notoriously friendly.

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Everyone knows everything about petrols? Tell that to Kolles (R10), Oreca (908) and Pescarolo (908)....

arent those cars diesel?

[Félix]

Audi farmed out LMP900 R8s quickly because a) the economy was better b) the car was not that high tech. Other cars with more advanced technology actually appeared during its racing career.

The R10 and 908 were trucks (relatively speaking) and only had trick engines. The RS Spyder was arguably much more advanced and it was made available to numerous privateers because it was intented this way from the start.

Now, the R15 and the current Audi and Peugeot are the first bleeding-edge diesel and only F1 has cars that are that advanced. They could lend them to a semi-factory sister team with 20 engineers but might not want to send one to Greg Pickett - even though his team has an all-star line-up of Indycar and sportscar veterans.