[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[GasperG]

Looks like they are very good in creating new cars or adapting to new rules, but not so good at finalizing and perfecting it.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Coopz21 x

Whilst i agree that Porsche have schooled everyone on how to win Le Mans in 2 years, i strongly disagree with your comments about Toyota, just because we can't actually see someone protesting about the budget doesnt mean its not happening inside.... and to say they should otherwise burn this to the ground and go home is insane. They are yes well off the pace this season, but think about when they came into the WEC on a small budget they made Audi play catch up, and that was running a program that was halted wasnt it?

That's then. This is now. Back then Audi was sleeping and they still won. sure we can come up with all sorts of excuses like "2012 was Toyota's first year", "Need luck" etc, but in Porsche's first year at the 24, they finished the race. - they set a realistic target and threw the budget to reach the target and made all the right calls. and got there in the end. Toyota could not say the same. Point being there are manufacturers that step up to the challenge with the right plan and reap benefits in a short period and some that take time to learn and get there. Consider the Porsche effort to that of Peugeot's. Porsche can happily quit right now after that mammoth 2 year effort. Actually i dont even see a point in them carrying on after 17 wins and there really isnt much of a point to prove. Meanwhile at the Toyota camp, 30 years and no win...see where i'm going with this? I would very much like to be wrong. Trust me i do. Im a die hard Toyota fan like many of you and this is why im so vocal of my damning of this half-arsed effort TMC is throwing out there. I would not be surprised if some of the drivers and team personnel switched camps to Porsche or Audi. Enough is Enough and, there must be people in TMG that are genuinely hungry and not there just to make a quick buck. And this must be frustrating as hell for them after 14 years of F1 and WEC failiures. After all, they are are based in Germany. As for pulling out, Lets have this conversation in 2017

[templer]

We don't need to discuss that TMG has a much smaller budget than all other manufacturers. A source of TMG has mentioned that Porsche's PR budget is even higher than the whole Toyota LMP1 budget.

Nevertheless they have made a mistake once more after 2013. They have underestimated their rivals, and thought it is enough to gain 2 seconds on a package they thought was far away from Audi and Porsche and both proved them to be wrong.

But TMG has all ressources to strike back even with a smaller budget. I hope they will stop all development work on this year's car as it is useless and fully concentrate on the brand new 2016 car. With their aero, chassis and suspension expericence together with a better engine and hybrid system they still can beat everybody.

But of course more money would help.

[ztnedman1]

Originally Posted by JacobP

I hope Toyota does not quit Le Mans racing. For one, they have the best sounding LMP1 car. And what happened to the road relevance? I think among the LMP1 cars, the Toyota prototype is best connected to a production car technology of the same manufacturer (the Prius )

You honestly think the Toyota lmp1 is closer to the Prius than the 919 is to the 918?

[TzeiTzei]

Question: which approach leads to longer commitment in WEC (or any racing series in general)? A big budget effort that is successful or cheaper effort which has only moderate success. And that is not say that Toyota cant have success in the future with their current approach.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

Question: which approach leads to longer commitment in WEC (or any racing series in general)? A big budget effort that is successful or cheaper effort which has only moderate success. And that is not say that Toyota cant have success in the future with their current approach.

I assume this is in the context of a manufacture and not a privateer in which racing is a way of life and doesn't follow the normal rules of logic!

I suspect that any racing program is sold to the those who control the money under some level of "we will win" promise. Or at a minimum, we will be competitive enough that we are in the hunt on a regular basis. There will be some dose of reality in that it will take some time to reach the goal, but there is likely no be such thing as "moderate success" as the final target when pitching to get a budget.

Also you mention WEC and not just 24hr LeMans race. So it depends upon what the target is. Your question is WEC. So the definition of success could be to not win LeMans, but to win WEC championship? However... I suspect anyone who is in WEC in the prototype class (manufacture) is really targeting LeMans first and WEC championship second?

So my answer is that if you are winning you stand a chance of keeping the ball rolling season after season. If you are not winning (within your expected timeline) then it would be a battle to stay. To the case of Toyota, I suspect they are at (or near) the end of their initial timeline (I will admit I know nothing about what might have been published previously around Toyota's expectations of success).

Richard

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by ztnedman1

You honestly think the Toyota lmp1 is closer to the Prius than the 919 is to the 918?

Spiritually, not technically.

[Rennen]

Well, that was fairly predictable...that the TMG TS040 would be totally trounced if all the Porsche 919s and all the revitalised Audi E Trons all lasted the distance!

How disapointing that Toyota failed to fully support TMG and their World Championship drivers in their joint quest to win the 24 hours!

All race car concepts have a life span, as Bentley proved a few years it took three years to get it right and win LM (or as Porsche proved it can be done in Two)

TMG's opportunity was last year, and we all know they were unlucky not to have won it with either car. but to come into this year, and assume Porsche wouldn't improve or that Audi had run out of ideas was a MASSIVE and unforgivable mistake!

The TS040's were totally reliable, but their drivers were flogging a dead horse!

Having said that, Congratulations Porsche for beat those boring Diesels!

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Rennen

but to come into this year, and assume Porsche wouldn't improve or that Audi had run out of ideas was a MASSIVE and unforgivable mistake!

Every competitor knows their rivals will improve. Toyota improved their pace by 1-2 seconds but what likely caught Toyota off-guard was the drastic improvement of Porsche and Audi. The race pace of Audi and Porsche was something like 3-4 seconds faster than last year...that's unbelievable and I doubt Toyota ever expected it.

[Japanese Samurai]

Juichi Wakisaka (Japanese Super GT driver) reports the interview to Hisatake Murata (Toyota hybrid project leader).

Q. Race was finished, and your impressions?
A. It's complete defeat.
Q. What's the factor?
A. We didn't understand that this is Sarthe.
We could run quicker than the qualifying time at the last end.
Time is needed more than the usual circuit until road surface is suitable, in Sarthe here. We couldn't read that.
On the other hand AUDI and Porsche could run by their own pace immediately. Its difference.
Q. As for Porsche and AUDI, their pace didn't change from start to finish.
A. I think it's the reason. The method to run fast might be different.
Q. About rivals' potential.
A. Various preparations were done for them as well as we were not understanding road surface. They're superior manyfold.
Q. About future development of hybrid technology
A. This chagrin will be the motivation which develops more better hybrid systems.
However, our general method/policy doesn't change about system development.
We exert ourselves so that we may win against Porsche by our way.
We have to exert ourselves more. When not developing the system that we're appreciated by customer, we can't win against Porsche.
Q. Do you think Porsche made accelerate hybrid system development?
A. Yes. We must win by all means.
Q. About race
A. There was nothing but a crash of Davidson with trouble.
We could race well, but it was inferior to rivals by the speed.
Q. A chance will be 1 year later.
A. It's better than Olympic games.
The WEC title was achieved last year, but we'd like to win in LM 24 at all cost.
http://ameblo.jp/juichi-wakisaka/entry-12039155053.html

[TF110]

Thank you, Japanese Samurai. I like the sound of that interview. Murata-san seems eager to push forward with new hybrid technology. Seems the surfacing caught them out and couldnt run to their ultimate pace from the beginning in the way Audi and Porsche did. I wonder why they couldnt? What was it that hampered their understanding? Samurai-san, have you heard anything on bridgestone's Le Mans ambitions? I wonder if Toyota would consider using them and if it could gain an advantage over michelin with a bespoke tire from someone other than Michelin.

[Simmi]

Honestly it was hard to watch this year from Toyota. The cars just kept pounding round. They weren't racing anyone. I genuinely think the #2 car was the most anonymous entry in the entire race. I find talk about track surface a very bizarre reasoning given they've been coming to Le Mans for the last four years.

In terms of the development of their rivals I was thinking to myself, surely Toyota should have seen this coming. But then you look at how the pace has increased at Le Mans since 2011. Pole time went up by (roughly) 2secs (2012), 1.4secs (2013), 0.5secs (2014). So Toyota's rate of development put them on that trajectory. But this year it was 5secs.

I think they were just a victim of Porsche and Audi pushing each other to new heights. I guess the issue now is that Toyota's re-commitment to WEC surely came against a backdrop where finding 5+ seconds of pace per season was not in the conversation. Similarly with Nissan. So it will be interesting to see what happens next.

[TF110]

I thought it had areas resurfaced this year? What Murata says is true, though. Audi and Porsche were running the same pace from the beginning. Toyota was only able to do that fast lap towards the later stages. From 3:24's to 3:20, but Audi and Porsche were doing 3:18's and such from the beginning.

[Chuliandred]

Originally Posted by TF110

I thought it had areas resurfaced this year? What Murata says is true, though. Audi and Porsche were running the same pace from the beginning. Toyota was only able to do that fast lap towards the later stages. From 3:24's to 3:20, but Audi and Porsche were doing 3:18's and such from the beginning.

I think he means that their car required the track to rubber in much more than the VAG cars. Maybe their aero concept had not enough downforce so that they could find any grip in the beginning which resulted in sliding and either slowing down or destroing your tires quite fast.

Overall I think it is to hard to harshly criticize them. They did a good job to improve their car. I expected the VAGs to improve. I expected them to improve more than Toyota. Maybe enough to be a little bit ahead. But I would have never guessed that kind of improvement before the start of the season.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

I was wandering this too. Even if Toyota is signed up until at least 2017, if the next two Le-mans races fails to yield that elusive victory, i think they will throw in the towel and use the "full focus on WRC” excuse. Unfortunately this is the general casualty of a series getting popular. Everyone wants a piece of the pie and some will sell their parents to get more than others. F1 is a very good example of that. Four car manufacturers racing against privateers and an energy drinks company is laughable at best. I hope the ACO figures out a way to make the series sustainable before we end up in a Mercedes GP situation where they are outspending everyone and scaring off the competition. Last thing the WEC wants to do is follow f1’s footsteps

That's just nonsense. Mercedes isn't outspending the competition, in fact their budget is said to be pretty moderate. They just build a better engine, and then the engines were frozen. And which manufacturers quit since Mercedes started dominating?

Question is what is being done to control the spending while keeping innovation open in the series?

For example yearly testing was limited to 50 days.

[Pole2Win]

TMG needs more money, but, as the F1 effort showed, throwing money at the car makes no sense without efficiency. That being said, they should've tried everything to field a third car at Le Mans. Even Nissan, who debuted this year, came with three cars. And Porsche won the race with their third car, although the #17 would've won it if the third car didn't exist.

Originally Posted by deggis

That's just nonsense. Mercedes isn't outspending the competition, in fact their budget is said to be pretty moderate. They just build a better engine, and then the engines were frozen. And which manufacturers quit since Mercedes started dominating?

I find it ludicrous when people say Mercedes is overspending in F1 when Ferrari is usually the biggest offender when it comes to spending, and it even has been openly said by former Ferrari motor engineer Luca Marmorini that Ferrari's engine is less powerful than Mercedes' due to design issues.

[TF110]

Toyotas F1 cars were mostly hit and miss until 2008 when Vasselon took over as TD. They still had those silly strategy mistakes and the drivers were pretty useless. The lmp1 effort looks a lot more solid in those areas. But spending less than half your competition will seemingly get you half the gains. I hope Murata-san's words "win Le Mans at all costs" are heard by the higher ups.

[GingerPixel]

I can hear the sound of pencils scribbling on drawing boards from here. It's exciting. I'm a big fan of Toyota and although watching them struggle is disappointing, a forced redesign and potential for a return with an absolute beast next year is exciting. The interview above gives the impression that they think the best way to win will be to enter 2016 with a weapon of mass destruction!

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by deggis

That's just nonsense. Mercedes isn't outspending the competition, in fact their budget is said to be pretty moderate. They just build a better engine, and then the engines were frozen. And which manufacturers quit since Mercedes started dominating?


For example yearly testing was limited to 50 days.

No one's quit. but look at all the whinging and moaning by the others. redbull, Renault etc and they are threatening to quit.

Are you joking? test limiting doesn't mean squat. Porsche and Audi will use that money and time to test off track. I think this is whats happened so far.

[Tarzaan]

Originally Posted by Rennen

Well, that was fairly predictable...that the TMG TS040 would be totally trounced if all the Porsche 919s and all the revitalised Audi E Trons all lasted the distance!

How disapointing that Toyota failed to fully support TMG and their World Championship drivers in their joint quest to win the 24 hours!

All race car concepts have a life span, as Bentley proved a few years it took three years to get it right and win LM (or as Porsche proved it can be done in Two)

TMG's opportunity was last year, and we all know they were unlucky not to have won it with either car. but to come into this year, and assume Porsche wouldn't improve or that Audi had run out of ideas was a MASSIVE and unforgivable mistake!

The TS040's were totally reliable, but their drivers were flogging a dead horse!

Having said that, Congratulations Porsche for beat those boring Diesels!

Imho the Speed 8 never beat the Audi unless the VW hq dind't want to see Bentley to win, and suspend the factory R8 program for that year.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by Tarzaan

Imho the Speed 8 never beat the Audi unless the VW hq dind't want to see Bentley to win, and suspend the factory R8 program for that year.

50% truth... in 2003 the bentley program was THE AUDI factory program! being audi sport and team joest the ones behind bentley team in 2003

[Tarzaan]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

50% truth... in 2003 the bentley program was THE AUDI factory program! being audi sport and team joest the ones behind bentley team in 2003

That's what I trying to said

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Zpectre

That being said, they should've tried everything to field a third car at Le Mans. Even Nissan, who debuted this year, came with three cars. And Porsche won the race with their third car, although the #17 would've won it if the third car didn't exist.

I was among the many crying when Toyota didn't announce a third car this year. In the end what would a third car actually have brought Toyota this year? Absolutely nothing.

Bring a third car when you're competitive and you might win (see Porsche). Bring a third car if you want to gain more development miles and collect data (see Nissan). Even that was arguably a hindrance for the latter.

I'm not sure we'll see a third car next year either unless they really open the taps on budget. 2014 was their year.

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by ztnedman1

You honestly think the Toyota lmp1 is closer to the Prius than the 919 is to the 918?

When you drive to work, how many 918s do you see on the road? Probably not many, because Porsche promised to build only 918 of them, and most of them will spend their lives hidden away in somebody's garage. Prius on the other hand is a very common car, in USA at least.

[Japanese Samurai]

Juichi Wakisaka interview to Yoshiaki Kinosh!ta (former TMG boss)
http://ameblo.jp/juichi-wakisaka/entry-12039721620.html

Q. Race impressisons?
A. We were defeated by Porsche. A victory of Porsche means that hybrid competition shifted to the new stage. We made the machine quick for 2-3 seconds. But Porsche exceeded more that. We're advancing development towards the next level, too. But it wasn't possible to use that in Sarthe. Porsche preceded us.
Q. Porsche uses turbo engine. The speed and stability were excellent in Porsche.
A. Yes. When the fuel efficiency is considered, it would be the era of the turbo engine. It isn't possible to stop this trend. When we release an accelerator by straight line end, Porsche is being still accelerated.
Q. About the reliability of Porsche? They should have thermal problem.
A. I think Porsche is surprised at itself.
Q. Maybe did Toyota prove it about the reliability of the hybrid system?
A. I thank a member of TMG. However, because it's 4th year, it's natural to be reliable.
Q. AUDI and Porsche are very competitive.
A. Yes. I thought the advantage of Toyota didn't continue for only 3 years.
We have to advance development thoroughly.
Q. Is it possible to catch up to Porsche by new system of Toyota in one year?
A. It's a serious thing to make it quick for 2 seconds by technical development in 1 year. But when it's hybrid technology, that isn't impossible.