Competition?

[Tim the Grey]

That's what I like. Someone able to organise things doing so...

Many thanks!

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by gungadan

Sounds good on the whole but I'm not wildly enthusiastic about this. Promotion of the site is one thing, commercial use is another.

Apart from it being open-ended, what about the IP ownership issues everybody goes on about relating to photos taken at circuits, and the agreements that might be in place.

We're talking about a couple of photos here....is that really going to be a deal breaker?

The way I see it is we should be grateful for the opportunity and the effort that will be put in on our behalf by others......

You can always choose not to enter.......

[minimangler]

i'm glad someone took over and gave a definite set of rules.

how do we submit, if it's anon?

and how do we stop people voting for their own?

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by minimangler

how do we submit, if it's anon?

Submission will be by e-mail with your Ten-Tenths username, it's just that when the pics are presented for voting that it'll be anonymous.

Originally Posted by minimangler

and how do we stop people voting for their own?

We don't, but if people are so insecure they feel the need to vote for themselves then so be it, people will only have one vote each so if they want to waste it voting for themselves then so be it.

[minimangler]

ok, yes, fair enough on the voting.
so i send an email, or a ten tenths mail?
i'm confused
instructions for the idiot?

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by minimangler

ok, yes, fair enough on the voting.
so i send an email, or a ten tenths mail?
i'm confused
instructions for the idiot?

Full details and submission instructions will be made available and clearly when we're ready to start.

[Snapperjack]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

We don't, but if people are so insecure they feel the need to vote for themselves then so be it, people will only have one vote each so if they want to waste it voting for themselves then so be it.

Why would it be a waste

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Snapperjack

Why would it be a waste

I think it's a waste, I also think it's pretty sad.

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

I think it's a waste, I also think it's pretty sad.

Agreed. I won't vote for myself. I will vote for the best, and if i think mine is the best i would have to think VERY hard about voting for myself.

That makes sense?

[gungadan]

Originally Posted by Hubble

We're talking about a couple of photos here....is that really going to be a deal breaker?

There are two issues.
First, and most important.

• Most of us don't have the right to allow commercial use of photos taken at circuits because of the media accreditation agreement (editorial use only). Same goes for paying members of the public. Maybe Ten-tenths intend to sort agreements with circuit owners if/when they decide to go ahead with a commercial venture. If they don't arrange agreements and there's a complaint, who is liable? T-T for publishing the photos or us for allowing them to be used knowing where they might end up? I'm not an IP attorney, are you? Blimey, people go on about this all the time on this forum, and suddenly it's all forgotten. We just need some clarification. I certainly won't be entering unless it's provided.

Second, and admittedly not very important for most (including me) - but still a consideration for some.

• If people submit their two *best ever* photos, and they are used commercially, they then might regret the fact they can no longer give someone else exclusive rights (subject to the usual agreements).

Originally Posted by Hubble

The way I see it is we should be grateful for the opportunity and the effort that will be put in on our behalf by others......

It's a nice idea but I don't see why it should take that much effort to set up. Also, I don't know the details of T-Ts finances but it appears to be, at least partially, a commercial operation. Are you normally happy to give your photos away? I don't see why it's so different to this thread from a couple of months ago which caused quite a fuss:
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98943

Originally Posted by Hubble

You can always choose not to enter.......

Yes. I'm aware of that. See above.

[Hubble]

[QUOTE=gungadan][*]If people submit their two *best ever* photos, and they are used commercially, they then might regret the fact they can no longer give someone else exclusive rights (subject to the usual agreements).
Then if they think they might regret it they have a choice not to enter. What's the big deal, no-one is holding a gun to your head....

It's a nice idea but I don't see why it should take that much effort to set up. Also, I don't know the details of T-Ts finances but it appears to be, at least partially, a commercial operation.
Personally I like to give credit where it is due. Someone has taken it upon themselves to organise something for us to contribute to and enjoy, and regardless of how much work is or isn't involved in it, they deserve a pat on the back. After all, no-one was holding a gun to their head either.
Are you normally happy to give your photos away? I don't see why it's so different to this thread from a couple of months ago which caused quite a fuss:
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98943
But we're not talking about giving your photo away, you're merely allowing it to (maybe) be used on a website, perhaps a calendar, or maybe some promotional material. And I would also point out that the 'stir' you refer to was generally about people providing images for free, and upsetting the pro's by taking business away from them. Unfortunately many of us got our first break into motorsport photography by providing free images to websites etc that would not otherwise have been able to pay for them, and in that respect it was a 2 way thing, as we were able to gain accreditation for events.

If you're that protective of your IP, images etc, don't enter. You seem to be making all the right arguments for it.......
Can you not try to look for the positives in it instead....please...?

[minimangler]

This happens everytime someone has an ok idea here...

[gungadan]

Originally Posted by Hubble

Then if they think they might regret it they have a choice not to enter. What's the big deal, no-one is holding a gun to your head....

Well you snipped the line where I said it's not an issue for me but might be an issue for others. Why are you criticising me for pointing it out though?

Originally Posted by Hubble

Personally I like to give credit where it is due. Someone has taken it upon themselves to organise something for us to contribute to and enjoy, and regardless of how much work is or isn't involved in it, they deserve a pat on the back. After all, no-one was holding a gun to their head either.

Yes it's right to be grateful to people for organising things on our behalf. But if there's a commercial element it's no longer completely altruistic, is it? Again, what is the problem with me pointing that out?

Originally Posted by Hubble

But we're not talking about giving your photo away, you're merely allowing it to (maybe) be used on a website, perhaps a calendar, or maybe some promotional material. And I would also point out that the 'stir' you refer to was generally about people providing images for free, and upsetting the pro's by taking business away from them. Unfortunately many of us got our first break into motorsport photography by providing free images to websites etc that would not otherwise have been able to pay for them, and in that respect it was a 2 way thing, as we were able to gain accreditation for events.

Who mentioned giving images away to Web sites? the link I referred to was the Dunlop photobook. I'm struggling to see how it differs from what TT are proposing. Incidentally, I wasn't particularly bothered about that either, I was just drawing a comparison.

Originally Posted by Hubble

If you're that protective of your IP, images etc, don't enter. You seem to be making all the right arguments for it.......
Can you not try to look for the positives in it instead....please...?

I'm not against the idea at all. I think it's great. And, if as a result of the competition, images are posted on a Web site - no problem; using them to promote TT - cool. And if they want to make a calendar or whatever on a commercial basis that's fine too. I don't have a problem with it; in fact I'm all in favour of free enterprise and wish them every success. But as soon as you introduce that commercial element the rules change for everyone. It has implications and everybody needs to know where they stand from the outset so that there's no comeback in the future for those that have submitted photos in good faith.

The issue I raised is continually discussed on this forum. The rules don't suddenly change just because it's something TT are proposing.

If TT add a note to their rules along the lines of: "If TT decide to use the images submitted for a commercial venture, we will take responsibilty for seeking permissions from the relevant sources." then everything will be hunky-dorey. Why would you not want that kind of assurance? Why would you argue against it??

And what's with the red? And all those ellipses? You seem to be taking this very personally!

I'm really not trying to be a pain or negative (honest) just being practical. I might be being over cautious but better safe than sorry, I say.

PS
I hope you all appreciate my quoting skills here That took *ages* to format!

[minimangler]

If you want people to want exclusive rights they need to see it.
If you're so bloody worried, don't enter. I'd be honoured if someone used my photo, and hopefully it'd help me toward a career in the business, as it would prove a point of sorts.
Stop raining on the parade, and let the competition be a laugh.

[gungadan]

I'm assuming you're talking to me.

Originally Posted by minimangler

If you want people to want exclusive rights they need to see it.

Forget that point. If you're not bothered, you're not bothered. Fine. I said at the outset it was a minor point.

Originally Posted by minimangler

If you're so bloody worried, don't enter.

As I said, I won't be entering unless the IP issue is clarified. Everyone else can do as they wish.

Originally Posted by minimangler

I'd be honoured if someone used my photo, and hopefully it'd help me toward a career in the business, as it would prove a point of sorts.

OK

Originally Posted by minimangler

Stop raining on the parade, and let the competition be a laugh.

Did you read what I wrote in my last post, seriously? To re-cap: If you take a photo at the majority of UK circuits with media accreditation you usually don't have an automatic right to commercially exploit it (stipulation is usually editorial use only). By implication, you also don't have right to give it to someone else in the knowledge that they are going to commercially exploit it because you would be assigning a right you don't have. The same, in theory at least, applies if you're a member of the paying public. If you're happy to ignore that, that's absolutely fine with me but there's no reason to have a go at me for simply raising the question.

PS
Here's an extract from T&Cs on the back of an entry ticket to Silverstone:

The use of photography equipment is allowed for private purposes only. All other recording and any transmission is prohibited. As a condition of entry to the event you assign (by way of present assignment of future copyright) the copyright in any photographs or recordings you make at the event to Octagon.