"Halfords" Civic Type-R vs. "JAS" Accord Euro-R ?

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

the Speed World Challenge Touring Car division, is it under S2000 regulation ? the Acura TSX looked the same as the "European" Honda Accord !!

[Mike_Wooshy]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Under Super Touring regulations that was certainly the case - originally the V6 engine wasn't available in a Mondeo road car but was fitted to the Probe. As far as I'm aware S2000 rules don't have that allowance, the block has to come from the actual road car represented although you can bore out / sleeve down to the required 2 litres.

Sorry mate your a bit wrong there, The Mondeo has always had a V6 in it. The very first ones and the second generation had the ST24 and ST200 which were 2.5 Duratec V6. The third generation had 3.0 V6's and its only the newest model that hasnt come with a V6, only the 2.5 inline 5 from the Focus ST/Volvo.

[redshoes]

Sorry but I'm not, check the dates.
The BTCC Mondeo appeared in 1993, the Duratec V6 wasn't fitted to a road car until the following year. When the BTCC car first raced there was no such thing as a V6 Mondeo.

[davyboy]

IIRC the BTCC Mondeo was fitted with the Mazda V6.

[andy_b]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

the Speed World Challenge Touring Car division, is it under S2000 regulation ? the Acura TSX looked the same as the "European" Honda Accord !!

different regs, but you are correct. In North Amercia, its an Acura TSX, In Europe is the Accord (the North Americans get a truly dreadful bland Accord!)

[Mike_Wooshy]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Sorry but I'm not, check the dates.
The BTCC Mondeo appeared in 1993, the Duratec V6 wasn't fitted to a road car until the following year. When the BTCC car first raced there was no such thing as a V6 Mondeo.

You are right mate Ive just read over some relases notes of the mondeo and the V6 didnt appear till later in the year, i wonder why they did use the Mazda K series V6 rather than the duratec V6 though.

[redshoes]

The rules say they could use any engine from any model in their range, and it was that engine fitted to the Probe. Although as I recall, at the time that model was only available in the US-market. Europe wouldn't get the V6 Probe until some time later. I'm not sure the duratec V6 was used anywhere in the Ford range in 1993.

It caused quite some controversy as it was the first time the engine swap rules had been so fully exploited. Not only was the engine from a different model it was being raced in a country where that other model wasn't even available. Many saw it as being from a different manufacturer as the only place a UK customer could buy one was fitted to a Mazda Xedos 6.

[Chris Y]

Additionally, wasn't the Duratec V6 only available in 2.5 litre configuration? In which case, for a 2.0 litre format they'd have to go for something else.

[davyboy]

I was working for Ford in the early 1990s and remember the launch of the second generation Ford Probe in Europe. It was touted as the replacement for the Ford Capri, but before it was launched, we learnt that the car was essentially a Mazda MX6 in drag. The V6 engine used in the BTCC Mondeo originated from the 2.5 litre Probe/MX6 and was sleeved down to 2.0 litre class regulation. I don't remember exactly when they went on sale, but I believe the Probe and the MX6 were both available in the UK in 1993.

Now that's settled... back to the Accord vs Civic

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Now that's settled... back to the Accord vs Civic

Which leads me to ask - is the engine in the Civic the Type-R, or is it the engine that's fitted to the Civic 2L Type-S?

[redshoes]

The (UK-spec) Type-S is no longer a 2.0L, it's a SOHC 1.8L. The Type-R has a completely different DOHC 2.0L engine. I believe the previous shape Civic Type-S used the same 2.0L as the Type-R, or at least a variation of it.

As I understand it the BTCC car uses the DOHC engine from the Type-R.

[andy_b]

dont know if this pic of the engine will help.
http://assets.speedhunters.com/u/f/e...peS/civic6.jpg

[Frederich]

Originally Posted by andy_b

dont know if this pic of the engine will help.
http://assets.speedhunters.com/u/f/e...peS/civic6.jpg

That is the Honda K20, also known as the 2.0 Litre Type-R. The Accord uses the exact same engine, the WTCC Accord is accually homologated with that engine as the "Euro-R" and exacly as the 320si only 2500 are build.

[crmalcolm]

As both the Civic and the Accord use the same engine, the difference in performance between the cars will be found in the body style.

Looking at last years BTCC calendar, I would suggest that the Civic would be strongest on the circuits where the petrol Leon performed well, and the Accord would be strongest on the circuits where the Vectra performed well.

Ultimately though, it woud come down to how TD and JAS set the cars up. We've already seen this season in BTCC the difference in performance between Motorbase, Team RAC and Mat Jackson, yet in theory they're all starting with an equal model.

[mattt]

one problem with comparing the Civic with the petrol Leon is thruxton - where the petrol Leon was weak but the Civic is fairly strong

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Frederich

That is the Honda K20, also known as the 2.0 Litre Type-R. The Accord uses the exact same engine, the WTCC Accord is accually homologated with that engine as the "Euro-R" and exacly as the 320si only 2500 are build.

And used in N.Technology's Formula Master single seaters.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by mattt

one problem with comparing the Civic with the petrol Leon is thruxton - where the petrol Leon was weak but the Civic is fairly strong

The Civic's strength here, IMO, is due to it's strong engine. As this is shared with the Accord, the Accord should gain the aerodynamic and stability advantages the Vectra had over the Leon.

[davyboy]

From a theoretical/empiracle perspective, the aero on a 2 box saloon is generally less efficient than a 3 box. On circuits where aero is important - i.e. where the car is on full throttle a lot, then the 3 box is likely to be better. However there are many other factors involved as well and particularly so with the 2 Honda derivatives. The Neil Brown motor in the TD Civic is known to be very strong, this could be delivering more horsepower than the same motor in the N.Tech Accord - we don't know. Also, TD may have optimized the chassis on the Civic better than N.Tech have done with the Accord... in which case the TD Civic would be able to usurp the theoretical aero advantage of the N.Tech Accord on the more open circuits.

There's only one way to find the answer to this conundrum and that's to do a back to back with the same driver. Otherwise we're just going round in circles speculating.

[werner]

I like speculating :-) A difference between the 2 cars is the wheelbase I think. That would give an advantage to the civics in tight corners, and to the accords on longer corners. That might be the reason why TD have chosen the Civic, the average BTCC-track is twistier than the average WTCC-track.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by werner

That might be the reason why TD have chosen the Civic, the average BTCC-track is twistier than the average WTCC-track.

Which makes SEAT's decision to run TDi a strange one. They appear to have sacrificed cornering ability for top-end speed, which is rarely reached on UK circuits.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Which makes SEAT's decision to run TDi a strange one. They appear to have sacrificed cornering ability for top-end speed, which is rarely reached on UK circuits.

Its not just top speed, also oomph out of the corners.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

Its not just top speed, also oomph out of the corners.

The Leon diesel has got great torque and great grunt. Its heavier than the petrol derivative though and where it seems to loose out is on braking... i.e. the way into the corner.

[werner]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Which makes SEAT's decision to run TDi a strange one. They appear to have sacrificed cornering ability for top-end speed, which is rarely reached on UK circuits.

marketing?

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

when Honda Europe will wake up and give more support to the very small N-Technology/JAS effort, after Imola I think its a duty to help Tommo

[FIRE]

Sipsz has been told that there will be no support for the team from Honda Europe and a decision on support from Japan could determine whether the team continue with the Accord next season.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70849