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Old 22 Jul 2008, 20:51 (Ref:2256167)   #1
adstubbs
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KERS - shocking! (mulitple merges)

Don't know if anyone else has seen this, but let's hope they make the KERS gizmos a tad more people friendly before next season - should rubber gloves be added to the rest of the gear for F1 weekend?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69391
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Old 22 Jul 2008, 22:44 (Ref:2256236)   #2
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I can imagine with all the battery and other electrical stuff F1 might need to run specific training for the marshals. Which is completely at odds with it's usual 'anyone can do it' attitude.
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Old 23 Jul 2008, 06:40 (Ref:2256363)   #3
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Sounds like they have a need to find earth when the car comes to rest before anyone touches it, but worryingly what if it discharges whilst moving or coming into close proximity to another vehicle? How insulated are the fuel tanks on those things?
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Old 23 Jul 2008, 10:17 (Ref:2256442)   #4
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Maybe they need to come up with some kind of "pop up" earth device that the car can activate as it enters the Pit Box, a little like those spring loaded plates they put up in some car park entrances to control the direction of travel.
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Old 23 Jul 2008, 12:11 (Ref:2256535)   #5
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I plan on charging all my batteries up from an F1 car next year!
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Old 23 Jul 2008, 16:27 (Ref:2256692)   #6
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Originally Posted by warweezil
Maybe they need to come up with some kind of "pop up" earth device that the car can activate as it enters the Pit Box, a little like those spring loaded plates they put up in some car park entrances to control the direction of travel.
For GPs the cars are earthed during pitstops. However I am not entirely sure where this is fitted.
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Old 23 Jul 2008, 16:36 (Ref:2256698)   #7
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Stack should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Must be made in the far east by WAN

(i'll get me coat!)
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Old 23 Jul 2008, 20:11 (Ref:2256769)   #8
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Shocking news!
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Old 23 Jul 2008, 22:52 (Ref:2256863)   #9
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A mate of mine who work in the electrical industry here in Australia tells me that it's not as simple as just "a pair of rubber gloves" to protect yourself or anyone else who might come into contact with a KERS fitted car.

More than likely he says that the energy stored is DC and not AC (well he hopes so), which means that the car become a capacitor in a way. What they need to do is determine how much energy it stored on the body, and that way they can also work out what level of protection is required for anyone handling the car.

If the level was too high for anyone to get close, then he says the marshal's would have to be trained in "hot stick" techniques that they use for high voltages, 6.6kV and up. This would mean at least one marshal would be required to be suited up in the gloves (which are about 5mm thick) and other protective equipment, have at the ready an earth line and a insulated stick so that they can place the line on the car without getting too close. Then once discharged, anyone should be able to go up to the car.

At the end of the day, we'll have to wait until the F1 tech working group work out the fine details.
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Old 24 Jul 2008, 06:53 (Ref:2256981)   #10
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^^ Sounds like what the ground crews use when landing a slung load from a helicopter. The rotor blades create static to a very high voltage and it transfers to anything slung beneath the helicopter, so as it lands the crew have to earth the load first before detaching the sling and retrieving the load. Just another piece of equipment to have on post and more PPE that we will have to have.
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Old 24 Jul 2008, 08:53 (Ref:2257034)   #11
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probans and KERS

with regard to protective wear i have it on good authority from a team member that they have already informed the FIA that marshals will require both training in Hazordous substance handling ie Battery Acid and that the current protection that we wear is not sufficent to prevent injury to marshals in the event of leakage especially as they are sighted in the fuel cell.
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Old 24 Jul 2008, 18:26 (Ref:2257308)   #12
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WATT on earth is going on, i thought F1 was full of BRIGHT sparks !
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Old 24 Jul 2008, 18:52 (Ref:2257328)   #13
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Originally Posted by CombeMarshal
I plan on charging all my batteries up from an F1 car next year!
Wonder if they could power hair straighteners?

Seriously though, thats very worrying!
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Old 24 Jul 2008, 19:53 (Ref:2257355)   #14
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Justin Moran should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridJustin Moran should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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WATT on earth is going on, i thought F1 was full of BRIGHT sparks !
It will be if they dont earth the cars!
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Old 24 Jul 2008, 22:56 (Ref:2257460)   #15
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what about the drivers will they get a shock when the try to get out of the car?
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Old 25 Jul 2008, 05:33 (Ref:2257559)   #16
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We were told at the Nurburgring 24hr that if the Gumpert Apollo came to our post we were not to touch it at all, we had to call race control and they would inform the team who their own recovery crew who would come out and get it. We thought at first it was just the team doing the "no don't touch a precious concept car" but that turned out to be a KERS issue and they were not sure if the car would be live.

Has anyone here ever heard of this being a problem in Hybrid cars, are they susceptible to this? are they safe if they have had a crash?

Last edited by danccooke; 25 Jul 2008 at 05:37.
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Old 25 Jul 2008, 09:25 (Ref:2257654)   #17
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Here in Victoria (Australia) if a vehicle is powered by LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas) it must have a little red sticker on it's front and rear registration plates, if it is a Hybrid powered vehicle it has to have a similar green sticker so that emergency personnel will know what they are walking up to in at a crash scene.

I've always worried about the crash worthyness of a hybrid with all those batteries stored under the seats......
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Old 25 Jul 2008, 17:35 (Ref:2257842)   #18
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It's really not that hard to make a high voltage system safe in normal use (after all, mains voltage can easily kill but we use it safely in our homes). The danger comes when the car has been damaged in an incident. If someone put a pickaxe through your television, you wouldn't touch it until it was switched off at the wall.

Exactly what happened to cause the electric shock to the BMW mechanic isn't being made clear, but we need to put aside any ideas that there will be cars driving around racing circuits with their bodies carrying lethal voltages just waiting to zap an unwary driver or mechanic (or marshal). High voltage needs to be treated as a potential risk, same as leaking fuel, hot exhausts or sharp edges.

The other risk is damaged & leaking supercapacitors, which might contain some unpleasant electrolytes. If the materials are so dangerous we need special protective gear then I for one won't be bothering to volunteer for it.

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Old 25 Jul 2008, 22:08 (Ref:2257962)   #19
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of a hybrid with all those batteries stored under the seats......


i heard a few weeks ago when on a ford training course that the mechanic in the states was killed when working on a vehicle which was powered by batterys
i just hope that the problems they are having will be sorted by the time they are racing.
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Old 26 Jul 2008, 16:43 (Ref:2258200)   #20
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Hopefully if its that dangerous, they'll scrap it til they make it safe!
Obviously being F1 they wont....
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Old 15 Sep 2008, 19:35 (Ref:2291185)   #21
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Hybrids - how safe for marshals

With the announcment of the ACO accepting hybrids next year and with all the recent press concerning mechanics getting shocks from F1 cars using similar technology ( I don't pretend to know anything about how it works though), it brings up the question as to how safe these things will be in the event of an accident or breakdown?

I'm sure safegaurds will be put in place but what if those are damaged in the incident?
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Old 15 Sep 2008, 19:54 (Ref:2291202)   #22
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With the announcment of the ACO accepting hybrids next year and with all the recent press concerning mechanics getting shocks from F1 cars using similar technology ( I don't pretend to know anything about how it works though), it brings up the question as to how safe these things will be in the event of an accident or breakdown?

I'm sure safegaurds will be put in place but what if those are damaged in the incident?
Knowing your luck, I'd steer well clear, get someone else to ground them first
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Old 15 Sep 2008, 20:54 (Ref:2291250)   #23
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To add a little note of seriousness...

This technology is being / has been developed for road cars and if there is ever a significant proportion of hybrids in the road car fleet I would guesstimate that there is far more likelihood that a hybrid road car would be involved in an accident than a hybrid race car.

So to paraphrase your question...

how safe will these things be in the event of an accident or breakdown?

All I can say is that (IM(not so)HO) if safeguards are not in place to guarantee their safety in the event of an accident or breakdown, hydrids will never be allowed to be sold to the general public!

However, I can name 2 hybrid cars already on sale to the general public... the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic ... so somebody somewhere must be convinced they are safe.

In fact, there are systems in all modern vehicles which are designed to work only in event of an accident (airbag systems, for examples) so surely they can also design systems to isolate / discharge and high voltage systems as necessary after an accident.

I will now remove my "geek's" hat and return you to our normal service.

PJ
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Old 15 Sep 2008, 21:23 (Ref:2291282)   #24
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The electrical side of things sound worrying. I still get shocks of the scalextric when I crash.
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Old 15 Sep 2008, 22:25 (Ref:2291318)   #25
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Actually the motorsport system safety is of great concern, ignoring the Oaktec rally cars - hybrids are actually banned from british motorsport.

On Saturday I asked Brun Famin of Peugeot this very question and frankly the response was a little vague.

And of course there is more than one type of hybrid, the electric systems are the most talked about but there are also flywheel and hydraulic versions. Each has very different and very distinct dangers, much training will be needed I suspect.
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