[ALMS] ALMS 2010 Discussion

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Single LMP class = Come on?!

I understand your beefs with most. But this complaint I just don't get. I mean honestly. Who were the two biggest rivals 2006-2008? Audi vs. Penske Porsche. Why? LMP2 and LMP1 were eseentially one class. All this single class is is a name change.

I understand your fear of LMPC and GTC. I cringe at the thought of spec cars in my beloved ALMS. However, even then both of these classes seem very much to be preludes to 2011 (particularly LMPC).

No, the sky is not falling. And yes, the ALMS is very well placed for the future.

Chris

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Duff_44

And for the points system skeptics, I'll propose a counter-scenario. Let's say Dyson wins P2 at Sebring and neither Acura finishes... then he's got a 30-pt lead in LMP going into St Pete (or whatever Rd 2 is). I think he'll enjoy that...

It doesn't make sporting sense though. Audi thrashes the field, wins 30 points. The Dyson Mazola coughs across the line, just within 70% of the Audi's performance and it gets 30 points for an LMP2 win? Yeah, that is great for Dyson, but innately unbalanced and unfair.

Chris

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

I understand your beefs with most. But this complaint I just don't get. I mean honestly. Who were the two biggest rivals 2006-2008? Audi vs. Penske Porsche. Why? LMP2 and LMP1 were eseentially one class. All this single class is is a name change.

Chris

And that was exactly the mistake that caused LMP numbers to drop. The ALMS chose to mess with the class regulations to make it more exciting and please Porsche, causing all privateer LMP2 entrants (the guys these class was made for) to leave.

That caused their dependency for factory efforts which has put the series into its current state. The ALMS has never understood that endurance racing has to be backed by privateers, not manufacturers. That's why the LMS does so well...you have almost no manufacturer efforts there.

The ALMS is set for the future? If Acura leaves, there`s nothing left... the series is grasping for the final straws, wrapping it in marketing BS.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Duff_44

Here's how I think it will work rules-wise:

Enduros: LMP1, LMP2, and GT2 all run to the ACO rulebook (i.e. 1.6m wings in LMP2)

Sprint races: LMP1 and GT2 run to the ACO rulebook. LMP2 runs to ACO rulebook except air restrictors increased to those used in 2008, which are ~5% larger in area, and LMP1/LMP2 run as one class.

And for the points system skeptics, I'll propose a counter-scenario. Let's say Dyson wins P2 at Sebring and neither Acura finishes... then he's got a 30-pt lead in LMP going into St Pete (or whatever Rd 2 is). I think he'll enjoy that...

Necessity has bred this, and I think it's the right way to go, although I might have gone with straight GT3 instead of the GT Challenge class. I'd also give the LM Challenge cars a little more HP, maybe 500 or so.

ALMS 2010

LMP & LMPC

These classes is being introduced ahead of the ACO’s 2011 defacto merge of the prototype classes with their new engine regs. And the introduction of a pure stock production low hp engined class as the new P-2. It looks to me as a proactive move on the part of the ALMS which will also allow the Formula Le Mans cars to come over for some of the rounds also!


GT & GTC

Here we have the loss of GT-1 and the bid by the big 4 (Porsche, Ferrari, GM, AM) to continue to have a class that they can develop their premier GT cars, which does not occur with the Rats vision of GT-1 as a micro class on the world stage.

So that leaves us with GT-2 as the main GT class world wide. Not all teams are going to be able or want to compete with factory squads.Which leaves us with the new GTC class that has been running in the ALMS this year, which so far has worked much better than I thought it would. Also in the release is the statement that other GT-3s will be bought in to the class in the future, which will provide a good entry class for privateers in the ALMS GT class.


As to more hp for LMPC and more GT-3s, I think by 2011 that may come to pass. But it all depends on how these classes perform in 2010 together as a whole I believe.





L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Acid09

And that was exactly the mistake that caused LMP numbers to drop. The ALMS chose to mess with the class regulations to make it more exciting and please Porsche, causing all privateer LMP2 entrants (the guys these class was made for) to leave.

That caused their dependency for factory efforts which has put the series into its current state. The ALMS has never understood that endurance racing has to be backed by privateers, not manufacturers. That's why the LMS does so well...you have almost no manufacturer efforts there.

The ALMS is set for the future? If Acura leaves, there`s nothing left... the series is grasping for the final straws, wrapping it in marketing BS.

Hog Wash!!!!




L.P.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Acid09

And that was exactly the mistake that caused LMP numbers to drop. The ALMS chose to mess with the class regulations to make it more exciting and please Porsche, causing all privateer LMP2 entrants (the guys these class was made for) to leave.

That caused their dependency for factory efforts which has put the series into its current state. The ALMS has never understood that endurance racing has to be backed by privateers, not manufacturers. That's why the LMS does so well...you have almost no manufacturer efforts there.

The ALMS is set for the future? If Acura leaves, there`s nothing left... the series is grasping for the final straws, wrapping it in marketing BS.

The argument "LMS does x and it results in y" doesn't make sense for the American Le Mans series. If the ALMS were to be a clone of how the LMS runs, it would be destroyed by Grand-Am because there would be no purpose to the ALMS. The cars would be ludicrously expensive and you'd be better off in Grand-Am as a privateer. Yeah, they'd be faster than DPs, you'd have slightly more technology and advancement but nothing significant and you'd get an invitation to Le Mans and that is not worth the added cost of running an ALMS car. Factory teams, backed private teams, and teams looking to make money in racing are the backbone of the ALMS because that is a niche market. Privateer racing in America you have Grand-Am. Privateer racing in Europe you have the LMS. No reason for privateer-centric thinking in the ALMS.

Chris

[Speed-King]

Well, the early ALMS and post-GTP-IMSA had just one prototype class as well. I don't think that's that big of a problem. In fact it is better to have one "full" class instead of two anaemic ones - even if it costs the series 1 or 2 prototypes overall.

I second your sentiment about the privateers being the sport's lifeblood, though.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

ALMS 2010

LMP & LMPC

These classes is being introduced ahead of the ACO’s 2011 defacto merge of the prototype classes with their new engine regs. And the introduction of a pure stock production low hp engined class as the new P-2. It looks to me as a proactive move on the part of the ALMS which will also allow the Formula Le Mans cars to come over for some of the rounds also!


GT & GTC

Here we have the loss of GT-1 and the bid by the big 4 (Porsche, Ferrari, GM, AM) to continue to have a class that they can develop their premier GT cars, which does not occur with the Rats vision of GT-1 as a micro class on the world stage.

So that leaves us with GT-2 as the main GT class world wide. Not all teams are going to be able or want to compete with factory squads.Which leaves us with the new GTC class that has been running in the ALMS this year, which so far has worked much better than I thought it would. Also in the release is the statement that other GT-3s will be bought in to the class in the future, which will provide a good entry class for privateers in the ALMS GT class.


As to more hp for LMPC and more GT-3s, I think by 2011 that may come to pass. But it all depends on how these classes perform in 2010 together as a whole I believe.





L.P.

Nuff 'said.

Now let me watch the race!

Chris

[Purist]

If anyone fouled up the prototype rules, it was the ACO for not realizing the potential of a dedicated car built to the rules set forth in LMP2. Even in privateer hands, Porsche RS Spyders would be capable of harassing the LMP1s at some tracks. The trouble is that the haves could run that car while the have-nots probably couldn't afford to do so.

The alternative isn't much better though, because the old LMP2/675 cars for the most part couldn't hold themselves together, so you had a pathetic last-man-standing scenario most of the time in the second class. The factories may have defeated the intent of the class, but they made it a class worth watching and one that actually got real air time/attention for its competitors.

The full season LMP2 class was collapsing if anything heading toward the end of 2005, and LMP1 was largely an Audi benefit at the time. So, the factories entering LMP2, which is what the boards were willing to approve, was rather fortuitous for the ALMS. It turned out even better with the LMP2s able to give the LMP1s hell at a lot of the American circuits.

[Jonerz]

Thus new LMP2 (LMPC) could be the answer.

/Problem

Chris

P.S. I swear I'm watching the race.

[fieldodreams79]

i'm not a big fan of one LMP class, but i don't care as long as the cars have qualiity and quantity.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Speed-King has my thoughts right. Both classes would be scored with the regular points structure and would carry them forward into the total overall score. Not 0 pts for the class winners, but 30 pts for Sebring etc. which would reward them for running good at the endurace rounds rather than throwing those rounds out!!

Listening to Scott Atherton with Hindy it seems this is the screnario that we will have.




L.P.

[AndrewF31]

Ya, it seems like it. Should be interesting if we have Acuras whether the teams will go with the P2 engine or the P1 engine. They could get a massive amount of points from Sebring and PLM instead of racing in P1 in those races against, for example, Audi and Peugeot, and whoever else pops in.

[tlongman]

On the SPEED broadcast Scott Atherton just said that 1 current GT3 Challenge class team has confirmed a GT2 program for next year. I would assume it would be another Porsche team and I would think that Gruppe Orange Racing or Orbit Racing would be the 2 most likely to move up to the next level.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Hmm,

Single.....LMP class = BAD
Formula...LMP class = Better than Challenge Class

and they will be Chevy 6.2 crate motors like the FLMS cars from Oreca.


L.P.

Hey Horny, can you expand on why you feel this way?

I think returning back to what we had in 2008 (or even '04) turned out really well. The only difference is that we're making it official.

Having a spec. class in the ALMS goes against the everything I like sportscar racing and why I don't find GA interesting. I don't care how fast, good looking, great sounding the spec class may be, I like innovation and diversity.

That being said, I am a fan of Scott Atherton and think he is an astute businessman. I'll give it a shot as he asked.