Did Fangio Get One Of His WDC As A Gift?

[Artwinter]

Why did Juan Fangio get credit for 5 WDC when one was a gift?

Gwen

[Ray Bell]

Which one was a gift?

Perhaps you mean 1956, when Collins handed over his Ferrari at Monza? Fangio still put in the drives that go the points through the year, it was normal at the time for junior team members to hand over their car if the team leader struck trouble, one of the other drivers had refused to give his car to Fangio.

No, no gifts in 1956...

Perhaps you mean 1951? When he had to race hard against Farina in the Alfa team as the Ferraris came good to score at Silverstone and the Nurburgring... no gift in 1951...

1954? Wins on Maserati and Mercedes Benz, maybe this is the year? He had superior equipment and no really competitive team mates. Yes, this year was a gift!

Or was it? I think he still had to battle for some of his wins, and he lost at Silverstone... no, 1954 was not a gift...

Surely 1957, when he was handed that easy win at the Nurburgring to make it look like he, as an old man of 47, could still mix it with the youngsters. But wait - he was handed that win by Collins and Hawthorn who were on the Ferrari team while he drove for Maserati... and he broke the lap record lap after lap... If the rest of the season was anything like this race, 1957 was not a gift...

So it boils down to 1955, then. A real gift, driving the best car in the field. But wait, a competitive team mate dogging his wheel tracks, and later writing that he learned a lot from the position one car length behind Fangio, and that no matter how fast he lapped the Argentinian could go faster. And disaster in Spain and at Monaco, mechanical problems! Sorry, looks like there were no gifts in 1955...

Have I missed anything?

[Total-F1]

Ooh - snazzy!

[Maxmil]

Done well
Ray Bell

[zealot]

Tell us how you really feel.

Gwen was probably referring to 1956, but you're right on with your assessment. Fangio had "help" in three races that year, but the same thing holds true today. Do you think RB would say no if he was ordered to get out of Shumi's way? I don't think so. And I'm not picking on Shumi here, the same holds true in almost every other F1 team (except, of course, McLaren).

Heck, Lotus had a chance to sign Derek Warwick as a co-driver for Senna in the 1980s, and Senna vetoed it because he didn't think Lotus could supply two top level drivers.

[Artwinter]

Ray Bell.

I like the way you used the word turned over which means (give, gift).So any way you put it without Collins gift of his car Fangio would of only won 4 WDC. How are things down under?

Gwen

[Bononi]

Oh,

I give my little bit to my friend Ray Bell.

He explained very well about that race, so whatelse could be wrong with that ?

Gwen are you trying to level TGF with Fangio, just to make things easier as he soon will be 4 WDC ?

No... not that really.

[Artwinter]

Bononi.

I saw Collins give the car to Fangio on SpeedVision last month and I began to wonder how often this had happpened in Fangios career. Things like this coundn't happen today due to the speed of the pit stops and safety equipment. This has nuthing to do with TGF I saw Fangio drive at Sebring an he was a great driver but this makes me understand that there is no comparison between then and now due to technology.

Gwen

[Ray Bell]

Gwen - if the purpose is to devalue Fangio, then look at the Argentine GP of 1955.

There were more car swaps than there were cars in that event, many more, some taking three drivers to get through the afternoon. And through it all Fangio drove alone!

Even Moss collapsed, Trintignant and Farina both drove the second and third-placed cars with another driver in each, and I think one other driver went all the way... was it Roberto Mieres?

Anyway, the point is that it was normal to hand a car over to a driver more capable of getting it to the finish further ahead.

Any attempt to degrade Fangio's win in the 1956 WDC to the same level as Prost's win in the rain at Monaco will meet with severe opposition!

[Artwinter]

After seeing how the 1956 WDC was won I have lost a lot of respect for Fangio. I now have to rate him good instead of great with a set off rules like this how could he miss. TGF will be rated above him in the history books.

Gwen

[Wrex]

Oh Gwen, I'm normally with you when it comes to Michael but you can't knock the great man Fangio. He will always be the greatest in my eyes.

[Peter Mallett]

Gwen,

Now that you've lit the blue touch paper, I wondered if you and the others would agree to moving this thread to the Historic forum. I think you may find a few more people to debate this topic there.

Let me know.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by gwen
After seeing how the 1956 WDC was won I have lost a lot of respect for Fangio. I now have to rate him good instead of great with a set off rules like this how could he miss. TGF will be rated above him in the history books.

Gwen

Well. I think the only gift I know of is that Fangio was a gifted driver. His talent was a gift, so yes!! You could say all his WDC's were a gift from God.
As for history books, perhaps you could help the Japanese re-wrie their history books as a more worthy cause; the Japanese children are being taught that the Rape of Nanjing was really Japan going over to help liberate the Chinese and save them from starvation. :confused:

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by gwen
After seeing how the 1956 WDC was won I have lost a lot of respect for Fangio. I now have to rate him good instead of great...

Gwen, I already explained about Argentina in 1955, or did you miss that post? What about the many other races where he was up against two drivers while he was the only one in his car... I'm sure Peter or Tim could find at least half a dozen of those, including races like the British GP of 1957 which Moss only won after taking over Brooks' car.

What you cannot take away, Gwen, is his achievements. Real achievements that no others of his era came near to emulating.

Like finishing the Mille Miglia with one front wheel tracking straight ahead... or more or less so, as much as the wire would hold it there.

Like winning those trans-Andes races in piles of junk before he was discovered by the likes of Wimille.

Like taking on and beating Europe's best when he was given a good car.

Like providing the best Maserati challenge to the Ferrari dominance of 1952/3, despite losing all that time with a broken neck.

Like trouncing everyone at the Nurburgring, pulling back all the time lost in that sloppy pit stop and going past the Ferrari lads as if they were in another race. And that but 10 months before his retirement, too, aged 47!

Like arriving at the top of the hill at Sandown Park on the absolute limit of braking and looking like it was a Sunday drive... aged 72! The tyres chirping gently as he slowed the car so close to lockup that it was incredible, yet he did this lap after lap and virtually nobody knew.

Like hauling the ill-handling and difficult to drive streamliner into a place at Silverstone before they woke up and built open-wheelers.

Like lapping the Nurburgring faster than anyone else in the team when Mercedes put on a test day with all their drivers and a range of different cars.

Like being able, according to Moss, to always be able to beat your time in an equal car.

Gwen, I'm very much afraid you haven't really thought this through. Remember, when he took over those cars in Italy, they were both behind him at the time!

Please, as many others as can think of them, add more of Fangio's magic moments...

[Marshal]

So Gwen, taking over a team mates car when offered diminishes a World Title, but driving a stricken car into you main rival to take him out of the fight doesn't?

And Ray, my Dad tells me of one the most impressive things he's ever seen at a race circuit was Fangio at the Gunnar Nielsen Memorial Meeting at Donnington. He'd never been to Donnington before, and was given a W125 Mercedes to demonstrate - a car he'd never driven before - and he'd just turned 70. The car belonged to Neil Corner, one of the leading drivers of historic cars in the UK at that time. Fangio's first flying lap was 10 seconds a lap faster than Corner had ever managed. My dad was at the Chicane, and the car was being flicked through on opposite lock and exited at 45 degrees to the direction of travel, with both back wheels spinning, under perfect control. So he was quite good really