Yellow or green flag?

[HairyDJ]

Originally Posted by White flag man

Personally I would move in front of it and wave a yellow. Do not want to be standing behind a car holding green flag, in case it gets hit!
If it's across the track from me, I would probably still do the same.

Pleased to read that - I recall about a year ago, you (I think) were Copse In & I was Copse Out and had a visitor park just short of my toes. By stepping forward with a waved & you dropping to stationary we protected the incident until the driver was out, but without neutralising half the straight. Once the driver was clear, I dropped to stationary for a lap and then down to hazard board (couldn't see if you had yours out or not!). I half expected some "feedback" from somebody later on, but we seemed to get it right and get them racing asap without compromising safety or locking out a huge chunk of the circuit. Not sure how far I'd have pushed the boundaries for an FIA event though - always got the feeling that they lean toward pedant rather than "a bit of common"?

[PieMan]

I hope that flagging remains an art and not a science, certainly in club racing. I've not had much chance to do it in the last couple of years but I always used to bear in mind whether I was being helpful by showing a flag (or not). We have a fair amount of discretion as to if and when to display a flag but once we do the drivers are required to obey the signal.

As flag points move further back from the edge of the track doubt grows over exactly where a yellow zone starts and finishes. The point at which the drivers can clearly see your signal may now be 200+ metres before the point at which they are level with you and there could be all sorts of carnage between the two.

As for the incidents in practice/qualifying at Monaco then I think it's correct (helpful) to go for the yellow even if the car is just before the post. Any other cars need to be warned ASAP and may have already passed the point at which they could see the previous post. Once you've counted to ten you can then decide whether to change your signal and/or move so that it can be seen better, taking into account what the adjacent flag points are doing and what the incident marshals are likely to do next.

[Dave Brand]

Am I missing something here? I though Woolley had pretty well covered this.

The stationary yellow/waved yellow/green sequence neutralises two sectors irrespective of where the flags are relative to the incident.

If you move forward to wave a yellow just before the incident you are only neutralising one sector before the incident & half, more or less, of the neutralised length of track is after the incident; what's the point of preventing overtaking & requiring drivers to be prepared to stop when they have passed the incident? You are also effectively halving the distance at which the drivers are warned of the incident; is that in the best interests of marshals' & drivers' safety? Surely, if the incident's before your flag point you present a green, irrespective of how far in front? Of course, the flaggie at the previous flag point may decide, if it's a serious incident, that he also needs to show a waved yellow. . . now we have three sectors neutralised!

Now here's a thought. . .

. . . if a flaggie moves away from his post to cover an incident could a driver who was penalised for overtaking under yellow appeal that decision on the grounds that the flag was not shown at the designated flag point?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Am I missing something here? I though Woolley had pretty well covered this.

The stationary yellow/waved yellow/green sequence neutralises two sectors irrespective of where the flags are relative to the incident.

If you move forward to wave a yellow just before the incident you are only neutralising one sector before the incident & half, more or less, of the neutralised length of track is after the incident; what's the point of preventing overtaking & requiring drivers to be prepared to stop when they have passed the incident? You are also effectively halving the distance at which the drivers are warned of the incident; is that in the best interests of marshals' & drivers' safety? Surely, if the incident's before your flag point you present a green, irrespective of how far in front? Of course, the flaggie at the previous flag point may decide, if it's a serious incident, that he also needs to show a waved yellow. . . now we have three sectors neutralised!

Now here's a thought. . .

. . . if a flaggie moves away from his post to cover an incident could a driver who was penalised for overtaking under yellow appeal that decision on the grounds that the flag was not shown at the designated flag point?

Yep, that's what I was trying to say. If the accident is close to you, ideally you'd like to be able to go green in order to allow the post before you to show the yellow to neutralise the approach and give advance warning. Particularly so with FIA rules where there is no preceding yellow officially. (Nothing to prevent the preceding post deciding that the incident is sufficiently serious to warrant designating that sector as a controlled zone as well, of course)

The last part - I would expect that to be the case. If you're in a flag post - Silverstone, Donington - you're stuck where you are. Depending on how far away the incident is you can sometimes be creative with where you decide the dividing line of before/after falls. At Oulton or Mallory your spot is not quite so precisely defined so you can move a few steps in either direction but we're really talking a couple of yards at most.

In Italy or Monaco, I think it's OK to sprint 50 yards to stand in a position of danger next to the wreckage in order to make sure that no overtaking takes place in the sector following the accident...

[Pete LMC]

Now here's a thought. . .

. . . if a flaggie moves away from his post to cover an incident could a driver who was penalised for overtaking under yellow appeal that decision on the grounds that the flag was not shown at the designated flag point?

I feel that the driver would certainly have grounds to appeal, but how successful he would be ?? is another story.

Pete L M C ( Trainee Flag )

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Yep, that's what I was trying to say.

I understood what you were saying. . .

At Oulton or Mallory your spot is not quite so precisely defined so you can move a few steps in either direction but we're really talking a couple of yards at most.

Flag points at Oulton are precisely defined. There's a photo in the Post Chief's folder (why don't more circuits give Post Chiefs folders with all the information relevant to the post?) showing where the flaggies should be standing.

In Italy or Monaco, I think it's OK to sprint 50 yards to stand in a position of danger next to the wreckage in order to make sure that no overtaking takes place in the sector following the accident...

"Look Ma, I'm on telly"!

[Pete LMC]

Kovalainen spun just in front of the flag post (flag marshal) and then the yellow was throw out. I don't want to judge the particular marshal, but just ask the general question: should it be yellow or green? The car was before the flag post, so according to the rules it should be green, but... the coming drivers would see the flag way before they reach the spot. What would you do in this situation?.

Speaking as a Newbie/Trainee having only done 10 Flag Sessions,
my views for what worth they may or may not be, are given the circumstances as described,

In order to give the driver some degree of protection I would show a waved yellow, this would induce or cause the previous post to show a stationary yellow, and if this was deemed to be wrong, then face the wrath of my Post Chief - Chief Flag or C of C

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Pete LMC

In order to give the driver some degree of protection I would show a waved yellow, this would induce or cause the previous post to show a stationary yellow, and if this was deemed to be wrong, then face the wrath of my Post Chief - Chief Flag or C of C

If you'd done that last Saturday you would have been politely requested to replace the yellow with a green. Why? Read my previous post, & Woolley's excellent post on the subject.

Yellow flags protect nobody. They give warning, not protection.

[gwar]

Just another point of view.....is the drivers point of view.....can the on coming driver,s see a dark coloured car in the dark coloured wall/tyre barriers.
And at high speeds, acceleration of an f1 car, and the vast array of colour changes whilst driving a car through the streets with various posters, advertising banners ect....the drivers view must be very blurred, and has tunnel vision.
He might not nessacerily see flags at the side of his peripheral vision...so with a flaggie waving yellow flag directly in front of the the stricken car (give or take a meter) is directley within the drivers vision....from a longish straight.
Thus begins to slow up and seriously looks for something.
It is only a warning and may aid the driver...to spot things within the tyre,s barriers, debris ect...
And to be fair if any yellows are out around the circuit no one should be setting fast laps....

[Sticker Rub]

Originally Posted by gwar

Thus begins to slow up and seriously looks for something.

...oh, you were being serious

[exflagman]

A few comments on what is becoming quite a good thread.

I think Woolley and Dave B have probably got it about right - the aim should be to shut down the circiut for as short a distance and short as time a possible to let the drivers get on with what they are paying (or in the exceptional circumstances - being paid) for.

There is no point neutralising the track after the incident as this just results in drivers getting annoyed and hence can lead to them ignoring flags in the future.

Although each incident is different, in general there is a point on the circuit where an approaching car ceases to be capable of increasing the danger at the incident - unless the driver is really intent on getting involved! This point can be a surprising distance before the incident point depending on the circuit layout - as a result we should be trying to move the neutralised zone closer to the oncoming traffic - hence IMHO any stationary car close to the flag point should be considered as a candidate for green flag.

In the case of the Monaco incident that initiated this thread - I guess if I had been the flag marshal involved my initail reaction would be to throw a yellow as the car was spinning on the grounds that -

1 - Until the car comes to a stop there is no way of knowing where it will end up.

2 - The yellow may get any following drivers attention - although one would hope they would see the stationary car before the flag as in most cases a car is bigger than a flag (although some yellows I have had seemed to be size of a Legend )

3 - One would hope that the yellow would help wake up the previous flag point.

However - once the above conditions had been satisfied I would have switched to a green.

On the question of moving to cover the incident - if the incident is very close to the flag point I would be in general be more inclined to move in a direction to allow me to show a green rather than a yellow - although there are no hard and fast rules - it's all down to experience.

Good question about a driver be able to use it as a defence against overtaking under a yellow - if they could spot that the marshal had moved they must have spotted the fact that they where displaying a flag and hence would be admitting the offence. In any case the flag marshal could always claim they moved to avoid the accident.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by exflagman

However - once the above conditions had been satisfied I would have switched to a green.

Other way around. You'd show a green until the accident passed you and then go to yellow. I've done that a number of times and it's always good fun to do (not for the driver concerned of course).

On the question of moving to cover the incident - if the incident is very close to the flag point I would be in general be more inclined to move in a direction to allow me to show a green rather than a yellow

I agree

Good question about a driver be able to use it as a defence against overtaking under a yellow - if they could spot that the marshal had moved they must have spotted the fact that they where displaying a flag and hence would be admitting the offence.

LOL, like your thinking on this one. I'd be interested in a clerk's view of this situation. Obviouly, I'm not advocating leaving a flag point or taking more than about 4 strides - any distance that can't be covered in the time it takes to get the flag waving is too far. Dave's point about Oulton post being fixed I'd slightly disagree with. In most cases there's a pad and some fencing to stay behind which gives you latitude to move a short distance away from the fence.

[MikeM]

Assuming drivers slow when they see a yellow (!) then during practice, if you see a yellow and respond then your lap is spoiled so the number of sectors affected doesn't matter too much to me. In a race you can lose time to the car in front but drivers behind you should be slowed by as much as you do.

I think the important points are to give as much clear notice of an incident as you can and to avoid unnecessary yellows so that the ones given have the most impact on the drivers.

[gwar]

Originally Posted by Sticker Rub

...oh, you were being serious

Yes ok i was living in my dream world
I,m sure most poeple here have been trackside under waved yellows, and your thinking......have they slowed up.......dream on, especially the guys who have just pitted and racing to catch up with the pack, before saftey car comes in and goes green.
I appreciate that yellow sectors would be kept as small, short as posssible, but with a street circuit can it be difficult.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Other way around. You'd show a green until the accident passed you and then go to yellow. I've done that a number of times and it's always good fun to do (not for the driver concerned of course).

I see where your coming from but my point was that the first reaction is to throw the yellow just to get things moving - i.e. for points 2 & 3.

As with everything it all depends on the circumstances and just emphasises the fact that you cannot make hard and fast rules about flagging and thus why you need experienced flag marshals who feel valued for the job they do rather than the MSA attitude that seems to be that anyone can flag 'cos it's easy (moan over!)