Audi LMP1 Discussion

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Like I said in another post in the Silverstone thread, I think Toyota will be faster than Audi with the 2012 car. I didn't say they'd be faster than their 2013 car. I was under the impression Audi was bringing a 2012 R18 to Silverstone when I made that comment. But I was wrong.

Sorry, but that is NOT what you wrote You are only quoting half of what you wrote!

You wrote: "If Audi's 2013 car is a second faster than last year it may be close."
That means that you believe that because of the winter development the pace of the 2013 Audi would be close to that of the 2012 Toyota.

Next you wrote: "but Toyota hasn't sat still so I think they'll be faster just like last year."
Here, you literally said that the 2012 Toyota will still be faster than the 2013 Audi, just like the 2012 Toyota was faster than the 2012 Audi.

Now, you are claiming that you believed that Audi was bringing its 2012 car. Why would you bring up the 2013 Audi at all, if you thought that Audi was not running it?
Audi debuted the 2013 car in Sebring, so it was ready. Why would you think that Audi would bring its slower 2012 car to Silversone?

Furthermore, at no moment during the subsequent discussion, did you mention that you thought that Audi was bringing the old car.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Is it a game of who's right and who's wrong ?

Apparently. A lot of people remember the lively discussion that TF110 started in the Silverstone thread about how the 2012 Toyota would still be faster than 2013 Audi. And now he is changing the interpretation of his wording

TF110 already went heavily in the defensive when we pointed out the his "Toyota was 1 second faster than Audi in 2012" statement was unfunded. Now he is doing it again.

Apparently there are always two ways to interpret his statements

[gwyllion]

Audi Sport is making some organisatorial changes:

Audi tackles the 2013 DTM season with an optimized organizational structure. Dieter Gass is responsible with immediate effect as ‘Head of DTM’ for the commitment of the eight Audi RS 5 DTM cars in the popular touring car race series. Christopher Reinke assumes the corresponding role for the Le Mans Prototypes (LMP). Both report directly to Head of Audi Motorsport Dr. Wolfgang Ullrich.

source: https://www.audi-motorsport.info/v2/...single/id/7123

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by TF110

Are you serious? McNish knows Toyota is running a new engine how?

Did I imagine the time he spent as a Toyota driver in F1? Or are you suggesting there is no chance he still chats with people they know there. I doubt someone in Cologne would care that much if Audi knew they were running new engine parts. They've not got a detailed blueprint of them/

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Is it a game of who's right and who's wrong ?

When someone doesn't understand what you say and tries to paint you in a light opposite of which is true, that's wrong, and definitely not a game.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Sorry, but that is NOT what you wrote You are only quoting half of what you wrote!

I know and you know what I wrote, don't try to add your twist to things.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

You wrote: "If Audi's 2013 car is a second faster than last year it may be close."
That means that you believe that because of the winter development the pace of the 2013 Audi would be close to that of the 2012 Toyota.

4 tenths of a second in Ultimate pace isn't close to you?

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Next you wrote: "but Toyota hasn't sat still so I think they'll be faster just like last year."
Here, you literally said that the 2012 Toyota will still be faster than the 2013 Audi, just like the 2012 Toyota was faster than the 2012 Audi.

WRONG. Again. I said they'll be faster just like last year. As in they'll gain speed? Read it again without trying to find fault in what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Now, you are claiming that you believed that Audi was bringing its 2012 car. Why would you bring up the 2013 Audi at all, if you thought that Audi was not running it?

In my comment I said that Toyota's 2012 car will be faster than Audi. They ran Sebring with a 2012 car, and Toyota ran Silverstone with 2. Why would it be unlikely to think they'd run a 2012 car again?

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Audi debuted the 2013 car in Sebring, so it was ready. Why would you think that Audi would bring its slower 2012 car to Silversone?

What's it matter to you? I said I was wrong in thinking that.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Furthermore, at no moment during the subsequent discussion, did you mention that you thought that Audi was bringing the old car.

That's because the discussion moved on, like I mentioned in my next quoted post. You're the one seemingly hanging on to it like you're doing here.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Apparently. A lot of people remember the lively discussion that TF110 started in the Silverstone thread about how the 2012 Toyota would still be faster than 2013 Audi. And now he is changing the interpretation of his wording

That was YOU who THOUGHT I said the 2012 car would be faster than Audi's 2013 car, I never said they would. When you put words in someone's mouth you lose credibility. You must have missed what I just quoted?

I said last year. Not last Silverstone. At some points in the eeason Toyota were a second faster. Sometimes .500, not saying Silverstone was that track. Who knows what the gap will be or if its an Audi gap.

You can clearly see from that post that I wasn't saying any of them would definitely be ahead. i said Who knows what the gap will be

Originally Posted by gwyllion

TF110 already went heavily in the defensive when we pointed out the his "Toyota was 1 second faster than Audi in 2012" statement was unfunded. Now he is doing it again.

Yo, I've got the lap charts all setup for you from Interlagos to show how many times Toyota was a second faster than Audi. Shanghai as well. Same with Bahrain. You don't need me to point them out because you have access to it as well. So when you deny that Toyota was a second faster you're losing more credibility.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Apparently there are always two ways to interpret his statements

Apparently you don't read the statement for what it is but try to twist it so you have something you think is a wrong statement. Lighten up some, it's just a forum.

Originally Posted by wewantourdarbyback

Did I imagine the time he spent as a Toyota driver in F1? Or are you suggesting there is no chance he still chats with people they know there. I doubt someone in Cologne would care that much if Audi knew they were running new engine parts. They've not got a detailed blueprint of them/

Why would anyone disclose team information like that? McNish hasn't driven for Toyota in about a decade, I wonder what friends he has left that would even be in a position to tell him this information?

[TF110]

Hey gwyll- this is just a little example of the Toyota vs. Audi last year at Brazil. I used the #2 car that was in second place. Seems there's a lotta laps where Audi was a second slower than Toyota

Here's a good 50 laps;

45- 7. 1:25.718 / 2. 1:26.681 .9 toyota
46- 7. 1:26.869 / 2. 1:26.443 .4 audi
47- 7. 1:27.026 / 2. 1:26.051 1.0 audi
48- 7. 1:26.913 / 2. 1:26.189 .8 audi
49- 7. 1:26.515 / 2. 1:27.140 .6 toyota
50- 7. 1:25.226 / 2. 1:25.520 .3 toyota
51- 7. 1:24.802 / 2. 1:27.728 2.9 toyota
52- 7. 1:26.291 / 2. 1:25.899 .3 audi
53- 7. 1:25.845 / 2. 1:25.601 .2 audi
54- 7. 1:24.817 / 2. 1:26.973 1.1 toyota
55- 7. 1:25.503 / 2. 1:25.783 .2 toyota
56- 7. 1:25.188 / 2. 1:26.473 1.3 toyota
57- 7. 1:25.271 / 2. 1:26.141 .9 toyota
58- 7. 1:26.126 / 2. 1:27.020 .9 toyota
59- 7. 1:25.322 / 2. 1:27.930 2.6 toyota
60- 7. 1:28.646 / 2. 1:26.858 1.8 audi
61- 7. 1:25.137 / 2. 1:27.237 2.1 toyota
62- 7. 1:24.466 / 2. 1:26.112 1.6 toyota
63- 7. 1:26.654 / 2. 1:26.480 .2 audi
64-
65-

69- 7. 1:26.420 / 2. 1:26.840 .4 toyota
70- 7. 1:25.422 / 2. 1:28.845 3.4 toyota
71- 7. 1:26.285 / 2. 1:28.490 2.2 toyota
72- 7. 1:24.656 / 2. 1:26.439 1.8 toyota
73- 7. 1:26.246 / 2. 1:33.397 7.1 toyota

75- 7. 1:24.730 / 2. 1:26.280 1.5 toyota
76- 7. 1:25.821 / 2. 1:26.760 .9 toyota
77- 7. 1:26.399 / 2. 1:25.121 1.2 audi
78- 7. 1:25.212 / 2. 1:26.226 1.0 toyota
79- 7. 1:24.281 / 2. 1:24.658 .4 toyota
80- 7. 1:25.800 / 2. 1:26.909 1.1 toyota
81- 7. 1:24.812 / 2. 1:50.072 25.2 toyota
82- 7. 1:24.531 / 2. 1:25.820 1.3 toyota
83- 7. 1:27.684 / 2. 1:26.710 .9 audi
84- 7. 1:24.815 / 2. 1:26.169 1.3 toyota
85- 7. 1:26.105 / 2. 1:25.077 1.1 audi
86- 7. 1:25.927 / 2. 1:26.639 .7 toyota
87- 7. 1:25.640 / 2. 1:25.193 .5 audi
88- 7. 1:24.817 / 2. 1:25.672 .8 toyota
89- 7. 1:23.983 / 2. 1:28.824 4.9 toyota
90- 7. 1:24.710 / 2. 1:25.207 .5 toyota
91- 7. 1:25.172 / 2. 1:25.845 .7 toyota
92- 7. 1:27.390 / 2. 1:24.776 2.6 audi
93- 7. 1:27.116 / 2. 1:25.287 1.9 audi
94- 7. 1:25.537 / 2. 1:25.618 .1 toyota
95- 7. 1:24.121 / 2. 1:25.562 1.4 toyota

21 laps (22 counting lap 81's anamoly) Toyota was .9 or faster vs 7 for Audi in that 50 lap period (took out some for pits). I'm sure there's times where Audi was doing the same. But over 40% of those 50 laps Toyota was a second faster.

[Gingers4Justice]

Is it me, or aren't we a little too old to be arguing like this on the internet?

Toyotas are quick. So are Audis. My lunch is nice.

[Simmi]

Some people have too much time on their hands...

[MihokS5]

Its just TF110 once again justifying the TS030 is the greatest machine ever built my mankind.

Thanks gwyllion for also noticing I'm not the only one who saw his posts and trying to back me up!

[gwyllion]

No problem. Many (including you, Dario911 and myself) have interpreted TF110's statements in completely different ways.

TF110 seems to forget that we rely on the context to interpret his vague, ambiguous statements. And then he makes us look stupid for doing so

First, there was the "over a second faster" claim. Although he made that claim in his first post in the Silverstone 2013 topic, we magically had to understand that he was not referring to Silverstone at all, but rather to some moments during some other WEC races (i.e., Sao Paulo, Bahrain, Shanghai).

That is the comparable to stating (in the Silverstone 2013 topic) that Toyota had a higher top speed than Audi last year, and afterwards arguing that this claim refers to Le Mans

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Is it me, or aren't we a little too old to be arguing like this on the internet?

I certainly am.....

Time to move on, perhaps....?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

No problem. Many (including you, Dario911 and myself) have interpreted TF110's statements in completely different ways.

TF110 seems to forget that we rely on the context to interpret his vague, ambiguous statements. And then he makes us look stupid for doing so

First, there was the "over a second faster" claim. Although he made that claim in his first post in the Silverstone 2013 topic, we magically had to understand that he was not referring to Silverstone at all, but rather to some moments during some other WEC races (i.e., Sao Paulo, Bahrain, Shanghai).

That is the comparable to stating (in the Silverstone 2013 topic) that Toyota had a higher top speed than Audi last year, and afterwards arguing that this claim refers to Le Mans

Can you say 'modus operandi'?!







L.P.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I certainly am.....

Time to move on, perhaps....?

Yep

[Simmi]

Fourth R18 for the test day in the hands of Marco Bonanomi.

What do the experts make of that?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

No problem. Many (including you, Dario911 and myself) have interpreted TF110's statements in completely different ways.

TF110 seems to forget that we rely on the context to interpret his vague, ambiguous statements. And then he makes us look stupid for doing so

First, there was the "over a second faster" claim. Although he made that claim in his first post in the Silverstone 2013 topic, we magically had to understand that he was not referring to Silverstone at all, but rather to some moments during some other WEC races (i.e., Sao Paulo, Bahrain, Shanghai).

That is the comparable to stating (in the Silverstone 2013 topic) that Toyota had a higher top speed than Audi last year, and afterwards arguing that this claim refers to Le Mans

If you assume things and rely on your assumption of what you read as gospel you're setting yourself up for a letdown if it doesn't mean what you think. If you don't understand what I'm saying or the context perhaps you could ask what I mean instead of trying to infer I meant something which you feel is what I was saying. Maybe I don't come across clear enough, so if you want the context I will explain what I meant. If I say last year they were a second faster and you assume I mean a specific race that's not my problem. That's reading between the lines for something that's not there. I didn't say "Silverstone" they were one second faster. You inferred that, you added that. Because that's what you wanted my statement to mean so you could try to prove me wrong? That's how I fell, and that's looking for an argument. Just because it was in the "Silverstone race" thread doesn't mean I was speaking directly about that specific race last year. If I was, I would have said that.

Originally Posted by MihokS5

Its just TF110 once again justifying the TS030 is the greatest machine ever built my mankind.

Thanks gwyllion for also noticing I'm not the only one who saw his posts and trying to back me up!

This is another statement that proves what I was saying. When you dig so hard to find that gold but all you get is sand, it's time to find another profession. you keep reaching bud, but there's nothing to grab!

[Aysedasi]

Great that's that settled then.

Let's not have a three-way member argument in this thread please. Serious risk of the rest of us getting a tad fed up.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Fourth R18 for the test day in the hands of Marco Bonanomi.

What do the experts make of that?

Audi has plenty of R18 tubs sitting around?

Seriously, though, I do think that it's to gather more info for LM quicker over the course of the test weekend. That's why Audi ran four cars at LM and Spa last year. Knowing more about the R18 does make that seem unnecessary now, but the more cars, the more info, especially if those teams in general are headed in the right direction.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Hey gwyll- this is just a little example of the Toyota vs. Audi last year at Brazil. I used the #2 car that was in second place. Seems there's a lotta laps where Audi was a second slower than Toyota

Here's a good 50 laps;

...

21 laps (22 counting lap 81's anamoly) Toyota was .9 or faster vs 7 for Audi in that 50 lap period (took out some for pits). I'm sure there's times where Audi was doing the same. But over 40% of those 50 laps Toyota was a second faster.

Lap #73 was an inlap of Audi.

Finally you are bringing a quantifiable metric to the discussion: number of laps with a lap time difference of more than 1 second.

	Silverstone	Interlagos	Bahrain	Fuji	Shanghai
#1 - #7 > 1 sec	69 laps	79 laps	58 laps	48 laps	89 laps
#1 - #7 < -1 sec	48 laps	44 laps	36 laps	63 laps	33 laps
#2 - #7 > 1 sec	77 laps	87 laps	59 laps	92 laps	79 laps
#2 - #7 < -1 sec	41 laps	52 laps	21 laps	33 laps	40 laps
race distance	194 laps	247 laps	144 laps	233 laps	191 laps

Note that for Bahrain I limited the comparison to 144 laps, because Toyota crashed before the end of the race.

I did not bother to remove in and out laps from this list. So the numbers in the table should be reduced with around 14 laps (7 pitstops) each.

As you can see there were quite some laps last year where Audi was more than 1 second faster than Toyota . Yes, as expected, there are less of these laps, because Toyota was on average faster...

[TF110]

Yeah, good observations. I don't want to be labelled as a guy who brags about Toyota. I know that Audi was faster at Silverstone. I should have been more clear about what I meant when I said Toyota was "one second faster". Of course that's not on average, but more times than Audi they were the fast car, and a lot of the time it was a second, mostly less but you get what I'm saying. I think that ultimate pace of the Toyota car was around a second better than the Audi. This year it may be different, I guess Spa will clear that picture up.

[Creep89]

In the german magazine "Sport Auto" there are some interesting information:

- the air hybrid could be possible for 2014 according to Ulrich
- should have debuted in 2013, but we know what happened, FIA and ACO banned the system
- Toyota speculates whether the R18 uses a blown diffusor like the Red Bull Team did
- two exhausts and not only one like the old R18

Vasselon suspects that the exhaust ends in the rear wheel housings and as a result lower pressure zones occur. This helps to improve the flow to the rear wing.

In addition to the cars number 1, 2 and 3 running under the nomination for the race, a fourth hybrid sports car designated as car number 4 will be testing for eight hours at La Sarthe. It is to gather valuable findings for the future, as Audi is preparing for a new tire generation together with partner Michelin.

Audi Sport

Good idea, could be an advantage for next year.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I certainly am.....

Time to move on, perhaps....?

indeed. just for the record.. i like cake.

There!

I said it!

ive been seeing cakes all day. it's a sign

[Aysedasi]

Cake is good, but I'm not yet convinced it makes the cars any faster.....

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Cake is good, but I'm not yet convinced it makes the cars any faster.....

you're right. that would fully ruin the power to weight ratio, if one of the drivers decides to replace cardio with cake.

[Flem]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

you're right. that would fully ruin the power to weight ratio, if one of the drivers decides to replace cardio with cake.

Yeah but would it depend on the type of cake the driver had, I'd imagine a light sponge cake would make a negligible difference to lap times...

[Aysedasi]

Then there's the additional issues of weight distribution and downforce to consider......