[LMS] Audi R18 (including Cake Analysis)

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Hmm, and yet the HPD 2011 P-1 engine is a 2.8L V6 Twin Turbo (6-11 news) , and Audi is working on a V6 diesel TT seems they may know something we do not, eh?

That rumored Audi V6 is a diesel engine, which indeed is allowed to use two (VTG) turbochargers. I was talking about the future LMP1 [b]petrol[b] engine rules, which only allow one (VTG) turbocharger and 2 liter displacement.

It has already been pointed out that the HPD engine is production based LMP2 engine: see http://www.mulsannescorner.com/RCELeMans2010.html as well.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

That rumored Audi V6 is a diesel engine, which indeed is allowed to use two (VTG) turbochargers. I was talking about the future LMP1 [b]petrol engine rules, which only allow one (VTG) turbocharger and 2 liter displacement.

[b]It has already been pointed out that the HPD engine is production based LMP2 engine: see http://www.mulsannescorner.com/RCELeMans2010.html as well.

So let me get this straight, you think the rumored Audi V6 is going to be a production stock unit used for P-1? Or is it because their current P-1 engine is a twin turbo? If it is the latter then twin turbos are also legal on current petrol engines in P-1.




L.P.

[gwyllion]

I don't understand all your confusion.

The ACO announced in 2008 that the LMP1 will get less power engines with smaller displacement and confirmed that decision in 2009. See http://www.endurance-info.com/article.php?sid=6771 for the engine details:

• diesel: 3.7 liter, max 8 cilinders, twin turbo
• petrol: 3.4 liter, max 8 cilinders, atmospheric
• petrol: 2.0 liter, max 6 cilinders, single turbo

MulsanneMike recently pointed out that the latest draft of the rules he received drop the maximum number of cilinders restriction: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/2011ACOVersion4.jpg

According to Sam Collins the R18 "is to be fitted with a six cylinder twin turbo diesel engine, possibly mated to an energy recovery system." If this is true, obviously this will be clean sheet designed race diesel engine. It is just impossible to get 520+ bhp from a stock V6 TDI.

Others have suggested that Audi will a petrol engine. I argue that then a petrol turbo engine will the preferred option.

[chernaudi]

Especially when the TFSI system hasn't gotten much press lately as a power and effiecency boosting system which, after all, owes it origin to the TDI system.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I don't understand all your confusion.

The ACO announced in 2008 that the LMP1 will get less power engines with smaller displacement and confirmed that decision in 2009. See http://www.endurance-info.com/article.php?sid=6771 for the engine details:

• diesel: 3.7 liter, max 8 cilinders, twin turbo
• petrol: 3.4 liter, max 8 cilinders, atmospheric
• petrol: 2.0 liter, max 6 cilinders, single turbo

MulsanneMike recently pointed out that the latest draft of the rules he received drop the maximum number of cilinders restriction: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/2011ACOVersion4.jpg

According to Sam Collins the R18 "is to be fitted with a six cylinder twin turbo diesel engine, possibly mated to an energy recovery system." If this is true, obviously this will be clean sheet designed race diesel engine. It is just impossible to get 520+ bhp from a stock V6 TDI.

Others have suggested that Audi will a petrol engine. I argue that then a petrol turbo engine will the preferred option.

Yes, would appear to be the case. But then these aren't the official regulations, just the latest draft:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/2011ACOVersion4.jpg

[deggis]

Saw this another forum: German Sportauto is saying Peugeot and Audi are looking into petrol hybrids. What the...

[isynge]

Originally Posted by deggis

Saw this another forum: German Sportauto is saying Peugeot and Audi are looking into petrol hybrids. What the...

Makes potentially a lot of sense

• Both have established their diesel credentials
• Toyota still 'own' the hybrid brand, and a sportscar campaign would help Audi and Peugeot erode this
• The regs may well favour a petrol/hybrid approach

Toss in the already extant work Peugeot did on the 908HY and this doesn't look at all surprising.

[chernaudi]

As I said, Audi hasn't been using racing to push their TFSI gasoline technology since the R8 was retired in '06. With the R10 and R15, it's been diesel this and diesel that, and Audi has been looking into electric hybrid technology off and on for over 20 years.

[ger80]

Maybe Audi wants to run gas like they did at the Nordschleife with the Scirocco TSI? Could thet get that into the rule book?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by isynge

Makes potentially a lot of sense

• Both have established their diesel credentials
• Toyota still 'own' the hybrid brand, and a sportscar campaign would help Audi and Peugeot erode this
• The regs may well favour a petrol/hybrid approach

Toss in the already extant work Peugeot did on the 908HY and this doesn't look at all surprising.

Well. Peugeot are going at the Diesel-Hybrid road, where Audi is going Petrol-Hybrid (for their road cars).
So i do not see a factory Petrol-Hybrid from Peugeot, but maybe Audi.
Peugeot would want to show off that Diesel-Hybrid is better than Petrol-Hybrid, and what way is better that beating them at Le Mans?.
Besides the 908HY was a Diesel-Hybrid, so Peugeot already know that technology in race cars.

[TRuss]

What does a stock V6 TDI have to do with the R18?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TRuss

What does a stock V6 TDI have to do with the R18?

Absolutely nothing, but HORNDAWG asked the following question:

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

So let me get this straight, you think the rumored Audi V6 is going to be a production stock unit used for P-1?

and I answered with:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

According to Sam Collins the R18 "is to be fitted with a six cylinder twin turbo diesel engine, possibly mated to an energy recovery system." If this is true, obviously this will be clean sheet designed race diesel engine. It is just impossible to get 520+ bhp from a stock V6 TDI.

[TRuss]

I read through that whole thing between him and you and it is absolutely confusing. Horndawg seems confused, causing more confusion. And the whole thing is confusing.

[gwyllion]

I can only assume that the reporting about the HPD engine made him deeply confused http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=372319 has all the elements that HORNDAWG is confused about: LMP1, V6, twin turbo and production based

BTW TRuss, did Radio Le Mans pick up any rumors about the Audi and Peugeot engine for next year? Apparantly Eurosport commentators believe that petrol engines will be used.

[TRuss]

They may have. I didn't get to listen too much. Slightly unrelated, but I did catch the SPEED pitwall interview with Norbert Singer and that was very cool. He seemed genuinely excited about the future possibilities.

I think they will go petrol/hybrid. At least Audi anyway. It should be the easier route. The electric motors will more than make up for any lost torque that a diesel would provide. And I think that is generally easier to build a petrol engine lighter than a relative diesel. However, diesel technology in this application is still in it's infancy and is developing very rapidly, so they may go diesel. At this point it is all speculation regardless of who is reporting it. Ultimately both will chose whichever they feel the regs gives an advantage too. And that is something that is unclear to us outsiders. Or they may chose diesel/hybrid just to prove that they can do it. I wouldn't be surprised if Peugeot take this route. They sort of have that kind of attitude.

No matter what...I think that this is the most exciting time in motorsports in a long while. I also think that it will prove to be one of the most important eras as well. We are witnessing the beginnings of a great change and I hope that the R18 and it's contemporaries will reflect that excitement and freshness. If the ACO can keep up, the next decade could be mind blowing.