Delta Wing 2012 Discussion ONLY

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by miatanut

If a driver found themselves completely confounded by the lack of a fender over there, the team could mount a little wire with a dingle ball on the end where the fender would be. It would cost them a little drag but if that's what it took to keep from knocking rear corners off the car, that would be a fair trade.

My dad's going to die laughing when he hears this. He used to tell me how a certain group of Americans back in the '70s used to put stiff springs off the ends of their cars so their car wouldn't hit the curbs. For one possible solution we're now going to have racecars use the same concept.

The classic impact between two cars is an open wheel driver hitting a front wing of the car behind with their rear tire, maybe breaking the wing on the other car and cutting their own tire. This design would eliminate that problem by not having front wings out there at the extreme corners to get hit, so this design would actually reduce those "getting tapped in the rear" incidents.

Jenson Button-Lewis Hamilton incident this past weekend. Button moved over either to block or because he didn't know Hamilton was there and created the incident. That's tire to tire. Another example is watch the Marco Andretti in-car camera from his crash at Indy one year where Dan Wheldon turned him over on the backstretch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbArt...eature=related And unlike an oval, these cars when they're at Le Mans won't have spotters telling them "clear", "inside", etc., and the DeltaWing driver in this case has no frontal reference point for the size of his rear wheelbase when moving across the track.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

My dad's going to die laughing when he hears this. He used to tell me how a certain group of Americans back in the '70s used to put stiff springs off the ends of their cars so their car wouldn't hit the curbs. For one possible solution we're now going to have racecars use the same concept.

Jenson Button-Lewis Hamilton incident this past weekend. Button moved over either to block or because he didn't know Hamilton was there and created the incident. That's tire to tire. Another example is watch the Marco Andretti in-car camera from his crash at Indy one year where Dan Wheldon turned him over on the backstretch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbArt...eature=related And unlike an oval, these cars when they're at Le Mans won't have spotters telling them "clear", "inside", etc., and the DeltaWing driver in this case has no frontal reference point for the size of his rear wheelbase when moving across the track.

They were called "curb feelers" and I would say they were a '60's thing, although there were still cars that had them in the '70's. They were mostly used by old people who didn't know where their car ended. They worked by making a noise when the car got close to the curb, so the driver would know not to drive any closer and scratch those nice chrome hubcaps. If race drivers are truly as inept as you say they are, yes, it will be necessary to have a version of curb feelers for race drivers. I think they can adjust for it. Sportscar drivers can't see the actual wheel but they can still get close to the apex by creating a mental plumb bob from the fender to the tire. They can also create a mental yardstick from the chassis to where a front tire would be.

I would say a driver would knock off a rear corner before he hit another car in the sort of incidents you describe, but if you had a bunch of these racing together, you would have a lot less problems because there wouldn't be a lot of front wings to knock off. That would have been a good move for the Indy bunch, because the owners could all have zeroed-out their front wing budget. Indy's loss is our gain.

And as bjohnsonsmith points out, this design eliminates the potential of the classic open wheel interlocked wheels accidents. If anything, this design significantly reduces accidents relative to the classic approach. Fortunately ACO is open to things that don't comply with the limitations of the current rules.

[lms]

Originally Posted by kingkai

What the hell is this project about. In my opinion this car has no place at LM! And shouldn't the prototypes look rectangular from above and with the front wheels being in the same place as the rear wheels?... Thought that was one of the design rules for LMP?...
No this just look like one of those kiddy racers which should be left as miniatures to play with...
This car doesn't fit in sportscar racing in my eyes.

you are exactly right. Not to mention that there are supposed to be two seats in lmps, even in coupes. That seems to be a tradition. On the other hand, no one said that this thing is an lmp car.

[MitchZ06]

I know its bad form but I'm hoping if this thing makes the race it either fails or crashes out on the first lap and we see no more of it...Sorry Highcroft but this was a bad idea (why not take up my offer?)

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

You can make them a lot lighter by making an aluminum block but then that has no relevance to road car design because an aluminum block can't meet EU and EPA emissions targets.

The smallest diesel engine my company makes is a 3.3-liter and its mass is 265kg for a reference point.

The DW is using a 1.6T WRC/S2000 motor, Seat have used a 2.0TDI in the WTCC, this is a FWD car, so weight over the front is crucial.

[miatanut]

Taking a little trip down memory lane I bumped into the Wiki on curb feelers and it mentioned modern electronic parking aids. That made the solution to any perceived problem obvious. You could have little colored LEDs, like shift lights, connected to laser distance measuring equipment and if a driver had the distance to the imaginary front wheel correct, the lights would be yellow. If it was 1 cm from causing rear wheel impact with a wall or other object, one light would be red.

I think feedback from running curbs would allow drivers to develop a very good feel for how they should place the car but if a driver needed an aid, laser distance measuring could do it with no aero drag penalty.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

I know its bad form but I'm hoping if this thing makes the race it either fails or crashes out on the first lap and we see no more of it...Sorry Highcroft but this was a bad idea (why not take up my offer?)

Some people would say the same about diesel's, hybrid's, finned cars etc., a conservative approach to motor racing is not what Le Mans is about.

This is one car, for one year, if cynics are correct it will struggle to hit the track and be a failure. If, on the other hand, the DW achieves P1 pace with half the horsepower and ground effects, it will be a revelation.

Future LMP's won't look like the DW, but it could hint at how much power could be reduced if future focus is on weight and drag reduction, two things that could give the IC engine a much longer lifespan on road and track.

[joeb]

I was thinking that Brabham would be the perfect driver for this car because of this experience driving the old Panoz LMP with a long nose. I also have the feeling that modern professional racing drivers have the ability to judge the size of the rear of their car and not run into things.

[gttouring]

Any new pics... they have to get working in it and no point keeping anything secret

[grantp]

I have to say that seems like a solution looking for a problem.

However I'm not one to baulk at innovation. Heck I was around when the Tyrrell P34 hit the scene and look what effect that had ...

Hmm. Great iconic car stuffed by the regulations.

If they talk to Dean Kamen they might be able to come up with something that offers incredible stability on a nominally 2 wheel chassis profile (although perhaps using 4 wheels to satisfy the conservative regulations) and that would be really cool.

No practical application to family transport of course, but really cool.

[skycafe]

in some ways it is like the Tyrrell P34. The narrow front was drag reducer. Of course the air just continued unabated to the huge, wide rear tires, but hey. TheTyrrell used the extra wheels for the grip potential lost by narrowing the track so much.

Was a delta built to show the indy people? I believe I read it was to have tested last August?

I guess it is a good thing it has found a home in LeMans because I can't figure out where they would have pitched it next, although a Baja desert racer could have been a hoot!

[Try Hard]

Originally Posted by the real Stig

originally delta wing only had 3 wheels the from being a single non-steering fat tire, this was then changed to twin front tires to gain more credibility. It's was originally designed as rear steering which is one of the reasons why one of the engine designers in the league distanced it's self from the project. (I'm very close to Indy car racing & lemans design and this is what I know).

So may be to gain more credibility they've switched to front steer, only I'm guessing if they have they've not figured out how to do it yet. The under model has no cut outs for steering movement and even if it did I can't imagine how you package a pair of wishbones, springs, dampers and a rack is such a narrow package. I can't see the packaging it especially considering the lock required to negotiate chicanes and Arnarge.

The closest thing to delta wing I can think of is the Honda F1 land speed car.
Really light, no wings but big power.

I'm thinking this project is like Delorian, tax payers beware. (government funding for green energy research)

Did you actually bother to watch the video/read the information on the car? Second video down on the link I posted... plenty of lock there!

Gordon Kirby wrote a good, balanced article about the DeltaWing (with views from both the guys involved with DW, and John Barnard), and the front suspension is described in there, steering included. It's simply dual wishbones, with directly attached upright shocks. Pretty simple really.

(picture taken from the Kirby article)

You keep citting the mock-ups as not having cut-outs for steering, as far as I'm aware they don't have engines either, so take those with a pinch of salt!

The original IRL proposal DID have front steering/two wheels (the Kirby article was written before the LM car came out), and as far as I'm aware, thats the way the LM car is done. I think you want to check your sources on that front, and check out that article!

Anyway, is the car right for LM? I'm currently un-decided, it's good to see something different, but will is it what we want for the future of the race?
IMO, as an IRL car, the concept worked, but for LM, I'm not so sure.

[Try Hard]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I'm confused as to how close you could be when reading multiple links with interviews with the designers no mention was ever made of it having been a 3 wheeler at any point. In fact they mentioned a couple time that the tight front dimensions made packaging the front suspension was a no-brainer return to dual wishbones with spring and dampers between them. And since the suspension is internal, the components could be built purely for maximum strength without aero needs to compromise design; they referred to both thin-walled round tubing or milled aluminum I-beam designs. It sounds like they have made rolling chassis and have tested the car in a rolling road wind tunnel with Firestone who have developed new fronts (4" wide custom molded) and re-purposed rears (Indy Lights front tires). At the very least Firestone has load tested the tires they developed for the car so far and are comfortable with putting the tires on a track safely.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no238.html was posted earlier this year in response to Indy, not sportscars but think the information still applies. And no I'm not a fan of the design, and not sure it would work for multi-class racing and almost positive it will take some adjustment for drivers to remember the rear width.

Agreed... see my above post.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Was a delta built to show the indy people? I believe I read it was to have tested last August?

It was, I believe it was also backed by the teams but they went with their friends at Dallara.

I'm looking forward to seeing it. If it works there will be some shocked faces around the track.

[Audi Racer]

I have to say what a car. But i dont think it'll be very reliable and it could be dangerous for the rest of the GT field. Look at the shape of that car.
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=========
(GTE Car)== Crash

Can you imagine a gt car getting clipped by the rear tires. The driver is going to need to be looking in his mirrors at all times. The front end of the car is very narrow giving the impression that you can fit thorugh a narrow gap . However the rear end will get stuck and hit a GT car.

What significance does this serve. This isn't the future for Lemans prototypes. That car is a formula racer not an LMP car. It kinda jsut seems like an ambitious waste of money that will suffer from issies with performance balancing a very light weight car.

The Wirth Coupe/ honda engine tie up was a deal that Dunca DAyton needed to glue together. I got the impression that Highcroft racing is the glue that keeps HPD and Wirth research working together. i think it was a foolish move by duncan dayton.