The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) thread

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by arakis

Well the efficiency of a all electric is obvius..

Audi
Braking-generator-inverter(AC-DC or DCto DC)->eMotor->flywheel->generator->inverter->Emotor-> accel

Totota

Brakking-> generator->inverter->capacitor->inverter->eMotor->accel

But then again, front el motor should be able to recover more energy, but I don't think neither audis nor Toyotas generators are topping off, so this issue is no-existencial...

Toyota has a more efficient system, and a more practical system (usable from 0)

Audi has a lighter system..

The round trip efficiency (energy recovery -> storage -> release) of the Toyota hybrid system will probably be higher.

However, with the current the rules restrict the amount of energy that can be released. So the efficiency is not critical.

According to the Race Engine article the Porsche 911 system had a round trip efficiency of 70%. Assume that the Audi e-tron quattro hybrid system has a similar efficiency. That means that Audi must recover 714 kJ during braking in order to afterwards release 714 * 0.7 = 500 kJ.

For longer braking zones, there will be little difference between Audi and Toyota. However, if the braking is too short to fully charge the hybrid system, a more efficient solution will be able to release more energy.
According to http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2012/0...s-development/ the round trip efficiency of the Mercedes F1 KERS is around 80%. Say that the Toyota THS-R system has a slightly higher efficiency of 85%. That means that Toyota must recover only 588 kJ during braking in order to afterwards release 588 * 0.85 = 500 kJ.

[alexkiller8]

about tyre kindness i agree with gwyllion... audi average stint were 12 laps (around 45 min as average value) while toyota cars systematicly come back to refuel after 10 laps and around 40 min per stint. Audi strategy 3x12= 36 laps while toyota 4x10=40 laps. In my opinion tyres work still well also for 30 laps, maybe 35 to be generous but then start to gradually lose grip, becoming useless to use and dangerous. For this reason was useless for audi risk and change tyres at the end of the forth stint, to run almost the whole forth stint with old and almost destroyed tyres...
toyota doing shorter stints could still have a good use of the tyres in the last stint.

In my opinion the only objective proof of best usage of tyres by toyota was if during the night, toyota cars were able to run constantly in 3.25 as audi was able to do last year, keeping on changing tyres only after four stints.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by GTfour

I was so chuffed to see the Toyota's real in the 'ever so mighty' Audi's as if they'd all of sudden developed some sort of technical error.
This bodes very well for the remainder of the season and ofcourse for Le Mans next year, when Toyota will enter at least three cars.

Go Toyota !

Hopefully it wil lbe Four cars instead. one campaigned by Oreca, Toms or another Toyota team.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The fact that Audi went for a flywheel accumulator, is independent of the choice to do the energy recovery at the front axle

If Audi would have used another energy storage technology, such as electrochemical supercapacitors, instead of the flywheel accumulator, they would still have to comply with the 120 km/h rule.

uuuh...Wrong. 120Km/H rule only applies for 4wd.


on another note tho have any of you had a chance to look at the 2014 rules? it says that the cars ,will look a lot different than what they are now. i thought the TS030 had a 4 year life cycle?

Link: http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Se...014-announced/

[CTD]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

Hopefully it wil lbe Four cars instead. one campaigned by Oreca, Toms or another Toyota team.

Oreca is now an intergrated part of the TMG Le Mans effort. We will not see Oreca doing things by themselves.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

uuuh...Wrong. 120Km/H rule only applies for 4wd.

Where did I say that it applied to rear hybrid system as well?

[CTD]

Another interesting thing from the Pit visit:
Toyota will race in 2012, 2013 and 2014. Thats whats been agreed to and budgetted for.
A 2015 and 2016 participation is very likely as the new car will be build for 2014

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Where did I say that it applied to rear hybrid system as well?

here:

If Audi would have used another energy storage technology, such as electrochemical supercapacitors, instead of the flywheel accumulator, they would still have to comply with the 120 km/h rule.

nope but you are implying that regardless of the hybrid system, audi will have the 120km/h rule. read above

[gwyllion]

No, I did not. Regardless of the energy storage device (flywheel accumulator, lithium ion battery, supercapacitors, ...), the e-tron quattro system can only be active above 120 km/h because the front axle is driven electrically.

[gwyllion]

A nice picture that illustrates how Toyota was pushing to get pole.

source: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...933.1622349662

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

No, I did not. Regardless of the energy storage device (flywheel accumulator, lithium ion battery, supercapacitors, ...), the e-tron quattro system can only be active above 120 km/h because the front axle is driven electrically.

yes. BUT you left the Quattro part out of your original comment. hence why i asked.

[gwyllion]

Just read the discussion.

Rennen says that Audi's system is inferior because it uses a flywheel.
I explain that that the comment from Treluyer in the Autosport interview is independent of the energy storage system (flywheel or supercapacitors) that Audi uses. Treluyer argues that the 120 km/h rule for front axle hybrids is disadvantage.

[Holt]

Originally Posted by supermario21

To me, this is better than nursing a car around like Peugeot did in 2007 and pray the car doesn't break. If you expect problems, why not run the car to the max and see what happens?

I disagree. Theres much more to be learned from 24 hours of running at a pace 3 seconds off your maximum then there is to running full pace and breaking after 6 hours, in my opinion.

Running for a full 24 hours will help the team figure out weakpoints in the suspension or chassis in general, and real time practice for replacing noses or any other parts. How would the TS030 react to the temperature changes, or the cool temperatures of night?

As I commented on in the 24 hour race topic, in 2007 Peugeot had 44 of a possible 48 hours of data to work with. That helped them come back the next year and be 5 seconds faster then Audi. Toyota only accumulated 12 of a possible 48 hours of data.

Also, the new Toyota drivers like Buemi and Nakajima got very little running time due to the early exit.

And the whole trend of "once Toyota goes fast they break" continues. I wonder what the cause is. Any official cause for retirement besides just "engine failure"?

This is the lineup I would like to see from Toyota next year

#7
Nicolas Lapierre
Alexander Wurz
Nick Heidfeld (new)

#8
Anthony Davidson
Sebastian Buemi
Stephane Sarrazin

#9
Kazuki Nakajima
2 other Japanese drivers

[kober]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Adam43 is right. Maybe Audi can do another 4 laps on the tyres after 3 stints, so 3*12 + 4 = 40 laps, but then the tyres drop off.

If Audi wanted to quadruple stint the tyres, they had to do 48 laps. That is 8 more laps than Toyota...

Toyota were doing 11 laps per stint, so it's 44 laps compared to Audi's 36. If Audi wanted to quadruple stint the tyres they would need "just" 4 more laps than Toyota did on a set.

[kober]

Originally Posted by Holt

#7
Nicolas Lapierre
Alexander Wurz
Nick Heidfeld (new)

#8
Anthony Davidson
Sebastian Buemi
Stephane Sarrazin

#9
Kazuki Nakajima
2 other Japanese drivers

Because of marketing requirements, you won't see three Japanese drivers in a car. If they had three of such drivers, most likely you would see one Japanese per car

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Holt

This is the lineup I would like to see from Toyota next year

#7
Nicolas Lapierre
Alexander Wurz
Nick Heidfeld (new)

#8
Anthony Davidson
Sebastian Buemi
Stephane Sarrazin

#9
Kazuki Nakajima
2 other Japanese drivers

I say get rid of nakajima and go with someone like Kobayashi or Douval. makes no sense for him to be in an Audi. i also want to see Bourdais,or jacques Villenuve if possible