[ALMS] ALMS 2012 Discussion

[joeb]

Originally Posted by AGD

I'll add this to the "I'll believe it when I see it" list. Even if it does run, it will be unclassified. On top of that, wasn't it said that the electric Lola would only be set for "time attack" mode (qualifying only) and not racing initially? So what would the point be exactly? Try to match/beat the times of existing cars? And I say this somewhat jokingly, but where would the restrictor go?

That was good! Anyways, I would be more than happy to see them show up, even if it was just for qualifying.

Also, last year I think Mr. Atherton mentioned something about a CNG car racing in the near future. Does anybody know anything about that?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Yup, getting to be a really nice expensive club racing series.

If the ALMS is expensive club racing, every sportscar series since the dawn of time is too.

There will be a minimum of seven new P1/P2 chassis on the grid, that's real investment in classes it was said had no future this time last year, in addition LMPC has grown to be an interesting class in itself, featuring teams with plans to progress.

Factory teams aren't going to parachute in and race amongst themselves, it takes time to re-build, if there's similar growth this time next year, you may see the first signs of Honda stepping up their support for Muscle Milk to counter potential increased P1 competition, from there we'll have to see where it take us.

On the GT side this is the last year for GTC, I think GTE-Am will be introduced as it's replacement, I also believe the series will be given freedom to homologate certain GT3 models in addition to the R8, if there's sufficient interest, i.e the SLS, Z4 and GT-R.

Only when you have a strong foundation with privateers investing in new machinery, and stakes being raised, will manufactuers take a closer look.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

If the ALMS is expensive club racing, every sportscar series since the dawn of time is too.

What? You've got exactly one car with an all pro lineup in LMP's.

Try to spin this with whatever rose coloured glasses you've got, but it is what it is.

As recently as a few years ago, we had as many as 11 regular season full pro lineups. That was hardly club racing. That was pro racing at it's best.

There will be a minimum of seven new P1/P2 chassis on the grid, that's real investment in classes it was said had no future this time last year, in addition LMPC has grown to be an interesting class in itself, featuring teams with plans to progress.

Wow, Lola, Oak... that'll really bring in the people to the track...it is irrelevant what people spend, it's how marketable things are.

On the GT side this is the last year for GTC, I think GTE-Am will be introduced as it's replacement, I also believe the series will be given freedom to homologate certain GT3 models in addition to the R8, if there's sufficient interest, i.e the SLS, Z4 and GT-R.

Sure.. we'll get a bunch more privateers driving stuff around. Meanwhile the Pro Risi teams exits, the pro BMW factory exits.... It becomes more amateur hour.

Only when you have a strong foundation with privateers investing in new machinery, and stakes being raised, will manufactuers take a closer look.

The business side is still a complete mystery? I can just see Audi NA saying... hey look, that series has no ROI, has fewer and fewer fans watching, and attending... but it has a strong foundation of privateers, let's race there. Completely ludicrous. PLM attendance for one, will be a disaster year/year...

The two keys for future success, are the strength of the premier categories, that the factories might be interested in. LMP1 shows no growth, but new chassis, GT(E) shows shrinkage. AFAIK, Corvette Racing's budget is approved to the end of next year... Lose them, along with Risi and BMW... and that is possible, and you've got a pretty sad series.

[Jonerz]

I haven't seen concrete numbers on television (and combined television and streaming) numbers on the ALMS but I can assume the ratings have dropped. At-track attendance however, I've heard no stories to indicate that numbers are dropping.

Petit risks losing some of the crowd without the big factory teams, but the rain-forced cancellation also risked killing the crowd but 2010 and 2011 were still well-attended races.

As you say (Fogelhund), it is what it is, and you have to appreciate that LMP2 is starting to attract attention (and at the race track it still features big transporters and cool looking, fast cars). The series needs the amateur base, especially right now when there is no incentive for the factory teams to come back.

We all know that 2008 is dead and gone and not coming back anytime soon, but it is what it is. You play with the cards you are dealt? Could the series have done things to improve circumstances? Were their bandaids better than one or both of the spec classes? Yes. But 2010 was like almost a "Best Of" compilation album for the ALMS, Porsches, Acuras, great GT racing, V8 powered prototypes, plenty of Porsches in the bottom class, 2011 featured an average grid of over 30 cars.

The ALMS is sticking to the side of the ACO, even though it is auto racing's version of an abusive marriage. However there is still potential that factories will come back, consistency is the key (stable rules). The ALMS wasn't particularly visible when Audi committed to the championship in 1999-2000. If the rules make sense, the series will gain its big money players back.

Would I like to see the Panoz group spend more money on marketing the series? Yes. But Don wants the thing to stand on its own. It is what it is. It's not 2008 anymore, but it's not dissimilar to 2005, plus there are more live races on television in 2012 than there were in 2011, so you keep pushing forward.

In 2008 the ALMS should have jumped on the GT bandwagon, in 2011 they should jump on the LMP2 bandwagon, but these things ebb and flow in motor sport (unless you are Formula 1).

No one is denying the ALMS dropped the ball pretty bad heading into the "great recession". It went from the darling of the motor sport world and IndyCar/Champ Car's replacement as America's #2 pro racing series.

If anyone has access to the data, I would like to see race-to-race eyeballs on the 2008 TV broadcasts and 2011 combined streams/tape-delayed-truncated broadcasts.

It'll be a long road back to the big time at this stage for the ALMS, hopefully it can survive and rebuild. (And hopefully it builds a strong privateer base - which in sports cars includes amateurs - and hopefully it also rebuilds its ladder series and support series to entertain fans and develop American talent for the big series.)

Chris

[Victor_RO]

Some random browsing while rewatching Le Mans '01 and a bit about the Corvette C5.R engines led me to this:

http://www.katechengines.com/motor-s...s-series-lmp2/

Don't know how old the page is, but... has there been any word about any team considering this?

[NaBUru38]

Since Muscle Milk Pickett moved to HPD, will Lola-Aston Martin protos run next year?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Since Muscle Milk Pickett moved to HPD, will Lola-Aston Martin protos run next year?

Doesn't look like it.

[alexkiller8]

as far i know, no teams are intersted and if someone will be, an aero and bodywork update will be required (fin and fenders most of all).

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

as far i know, no teams are intersted and if someone will be, an aero and bodywork update will be required (fin and fenders most of all).

In theory, but if someone had one, and wanted to run, the ALMS would likely let them without the changes.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

What? You've got exactly one car with an all pro lineup in LMP's.

Try to spin this with whatever rose coloured glasses you've got, but it is what it is.

As recently as a few years ago, we had as many as 11 regular season full pro lineups. That was hardly club racing. That was pro racing at it's best.




Wow, Lola, Oak... that'll really bring in the people to the track...it is irrelevant what people spend, it's how marketable things are.





Sure.. we'll get a bunch more privateers driving stuff around. Meanwhile the Pro Risi teams exits, the pro BMW factory exits.... It becomes more amateur hour.



The business side is still a complete mystery? I can just see Audi NA saying... hey look, that series has no ROI, has fewer and fewer fans watching, and attending... but it has a strong foundation of privateers, let's race there. Completely ludicrous. PLM attendance for one, will be a disaster year/year...

The two keys for future success, are the strength of the premier categories, that the factories might be interested in. LMP1 shows no growth, but new chassis, GT(E) shows shrinkage. AFAIK, Corvette Racing's budget is approved to the end of next year... Lose them, along with Risi and BMW... and that is possible, and you've got a pretty sad series.

The norm for the ALMS is not all pro line-ups throughout the field, it's a couple of factory Audi's with a valiant effort from Dyson keeping things interesting, a GT1 field consisting of Corvette and the odd Saleen/Maserati, and GT2 resembling a Porsche Cup. As you regularly state, TV ratings were in decline when the series was at it's LMP peak in 2006-8, so other issues are major factors.

The series almost went to the wall, it's a pipe dream to expect full fields of factory and all-pro crews, the series needs time to find it's feet, priority number one being to build up it's LMP field. By it's very nature P2 and LMPC are pro/am, but they're exactly what the ALMS needs to combat GA DP's and give privateers a stable, affordable route into LMP, who once acclimatised can look to make the next step.

The series has a leg up on GA through the ACO link, potential ALMS entrants such as Audi, Porsche, Honda and Toyota are already in the sport, it's a case of the series making themselves an attractive proposition, stage one of which is healthy, competitive classes. I watched BPR GT grow from a motley grid of single make cars and odd-balls into the ultimate factory GT1 battle, it would still be thriving today if Ratel had ditched the production pretense in '96, and moved swiftly to the ACO LMGTP/LMP900 structure.

The ALMS is starting from a significantly higher base, IMO it looks to have turned a corner, two years on from a real worry it could crash. Last season Muscle Milk and Dyson were in a holding pattern, they could easily have packed up and made a fresh start in GA in 2012, instead we see both with multi-year ALMS commitments with all new chassis, while the joke that was P2 will be hotly contested and attractive for teams evaluating the series. GTE is the only class with question marks, that was predicted two years back, BMW dip in and out of series while RISI have a great PR team putting forward their case, but I can't be the only one who thinks they have an over inflated opinion of their importance, with rumours of the Viper, Mclaren and GT3 models, the class still has potential for factories and privateers.

If you buy into ACO racing the WEC cannot be seen as a rival, rather a business necessity, expectations for the ALMS need to adjust. Far from having a downer, 2012 looks set to be the most promising season for some time, there's a more even spread of entrants across classes, and the fact we no longer read anyone seriously questioning the series future or arguing for a GT only series is progress in my mind.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

The norm for the ALMS is not all pro line-ups throughout the field, it's a couple of factory Audi's with a valiant effort from Dyson keeping things interesting, a GT1 field consisting of Corvette and the odd Saleen/Maserati, and GT2 resembling a Porsche Cup. As you regularly state, TV ratings were in decline when the series was at it's LMP peak in 2006-8, so other issues are major factors.

What you speak of was 2004 and 2005 seasons.... for LMP... otherwise you are flat wrong.

So, are two seasons of the first ten the norm, or are eight of ten seasons the norm?

The GT1 field mostly consisted of pro drivers, and the "Porsche Cup", won by PTG BMW in 99', BMW second in 00', BMW won drivers, manufacturers and team in 01', pro Risi second in GT in 03' (though it was a whitewash for wins), Risi won team champ in 06', 07', Ferrari lost manufacturers by 5 points in 08'..and we know the history since then.

So, yes it was practically a Porsche cup for three maybe four years.. but there has been competition in the other 7-8 years... so NO that isn't the norm either. All of these championships have been won by pro-drivers too.

Really, just making things up doesn't help an argument at all.

There are many issues here, poor management of the ALMS, poor management by the ACO and poor management by the WEC/FIA.

------------------------

I'll deal with the rest later, particularly the part about turning the corner.... I'll agree, it sure has turned a corner... Once confidence is lost in management... it's lost.

[JAG]

The first thing to deal with is the world, and sport, have changed dramatically since 2008. Yesterday saw some positive developments for the series, steps that need to be taken before we can hope to get back to grids like 2008, to dismiss it out of hand as expensive club racing..............it's not an accurate description and doesn't acknowledge how series grow and attract factory interest over time, rarely does a series start from day one with factory teams, there were unique reasons why the ALMS did.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

The series has a leg up on GA through the ACO link

Yeah? What "leg up" does that give the ALMS?

[JAG]

The same "leg up" that allowed the series to have a flying start in '99, a fleet of LMP's and GT's already running at Le Mans, whether the series can attract those cars is a different matter.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

The same "leg up" that allowed the series to have a flying start in '99, a fleet of LMP's and GT's already running at Le Mans, whether the series can attract those cars is a different matter.

So, in other words, they don't have a "leg up." The one time where they could realistically get a "leg up" is Petit, but the WEC seems to be doing their damnedest to keep WEC teams out of Petit. Outside of Le Mans auto-invites, and who knows if there will even be those in the future for the ALMS, what advantages are there exactly for the ALMS in regard to the ACO marriage? Even the auto-invites are cheapened by the fact that teams get auto-invites regardless of performance if they are accepted into the WEC.