Light Boxes

[hellblade]

Hi all

Im currently doing engineering at uni, ive come up with some ideas for new versions/tech for use in the lightboxes which are starting to appear at circuits across the uk.

My question to you guys is (already posed the same question to el drivers) what would make it easier to use them? or what do you think could be improved in the current models?

Any comments would be appreciated and any ideas that i use will result in the origionator being given full acknowledgment in my dissertaion.

Ta

Luke

[Richard Duvall]

Working on the premise that lights remain supplementary to flags and that there continues to be the need for marshals distributed around the circuit, with a flag marshal in control of both flag and light, the single most desirable technical innovation would be to have some form of automatic connection between the flag and the light box. A close second would be faster response. In my limited experience of a light system, I found it quite difficult to co-ordinate light and flag. The 2 sec hold of the off button often resulted in incorrect lights showing, eg by the time a flag had been pulled in at finger placed on button for 2 secs, there could be total of 3-5 secs delay on the light going off, and on a race track that could equate to more than the distance between two flag points.

The movement detection systems used by Nintendo Wii and Xbox Kinect could surely be adapted to detect the operation of flags?

[ascarracinguk]

Get rid of them?!!!!! In the wet thy have their uses because of visibility issues but I still prefer flags in the dry. The problem with light boxes is they are either on or off, a marshal has varying speeds at which they can wave a flag to emphasise the severity of the incident, with light boxes you can't do that. Same goes for blue flags, with lightboxes, you can't emphasise to which driver you are waving the flag at and how fast the driver is approaching.

I think the only way of doing this is to have varyin speeds of flashing lights on the light boxes to emphasise your point!

I think the biggest problem however is that you only have one light, often a flaggie has to wave 2 or 3 flags at once, when you only have one light box it's a bit difficult!!

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Get rid of them?!!!!! In the wet thy have their uses because of visibility issues but I still prefer flags in the dry. The problem with light boxes is they are either on or off, a marshal has varying speeds at which they can wave a flag to emphasise the severity of the incident, with light boxes you can't do that. Same goes for blue flags, with lightboxes, you can't emphasise to which driver you are waving the flag at and how fast the driver is approaching.

I think the only way of doing this is to have varyin speeds of flashing lights on the light boxes to emphasise your point!

I think the biggest problem however is that you only have one light, often a flaggie has to wave 2 or 3 flags at once, when you only have one light box it's a bit difficult!!

I know that this is the Marshals' forum and that this thread has also be started over in the Racers' equivalent but, NOT THIS. As a racer, they are fantastic wet or dry. Taking them away smacks of technophobia and traditionalism. Of course the marshals will still be needed and flags are (currently) the fastest way of deploying a signal but, lights are certainly the way forward.

[Alan Green]

Luke,

Things to consider:
- Control panel (buttons in a single row, narrow enough to sit on the marshals post in front of the flaggie, but with big enough buttons to deal with while wearing gloves)
- Response time between press & flash (needs to be almost instantaneous, as does the cancelling)
- Relay to adjacent posts (yellow at incident triggering green at the next, for example)
- Race control override function (a more costly & complicated function, but not impossible with the right software)
- Cost
- Visibility to the drivers (LED better than bulb)
- Power supply (not many posts with power sockets!)

Hope these give you something to go on

[Woolley]

Interesting question, and some of the responses already.

The problem of waving multiple flags by lights is one I hadn't previously thought of, but it's a situation that does crop up often. Red and yellow, white and yellow, white and red all crop up. I'd be happy for red to be a separate light controlled from RC, similarly the SC board.

Response needs to be instant, with a simple switch for on and off. Something for yellow, something along the lines of the intermittent wiper switch with on, off and a variety of speeds according to urgency. I'd be happy for the yellow to operate green at the next post (bearing in mind the green shouldn't go off until everyone who saw the yellow has passed it) and the stationary yellow at the preceeding post.

The blue is a problem, as it is possible to indicate who the blue is for with a flag and currently not on lights. This doesn't sound like a problem, but the recent GP with a driver complaining he was receiving a blue that was intended for someone else proves that it is, and it's quite possible to cause an accident with improper use of the blue. The light has the capacity to be confusing.

I want to be able to see the light I'm operating so I know that it's doing what I expect it to.

I want it to be impossible to fail. That's the biggest challenge. If I put out an urgent yellow it goes out every time. I need to know that the light is the same.

Thinking outside the box slightly, the hazard board can be converted to a light panel which might actually be visisble. And what I really, really want to play with is a display board to replace the change of surface flag. A choice of fixed messages for fluid/debris on track or possibly a rude message to someone who's driving you don't like... OK, maybe that's going a bit far.

It makes you realise how efficient flags are, and how difficult it is to adequately replace them. The only real problem with flags is the distance the person waving them is from the circuit and how poorly sited some of the posts are.

[bludvl_x19]

I've had experience with a fantastic system at a couple of circuits here in Australia, which will do most of what is mentioned above. I do think that it needs one improvement IMHO.

It has a wireless controller that will activate yellow, red, blue, double yellow and green; but it is too small (wii remote sized) for two people to use.

I was thinking that a remote for the person facing upstream with blue and green, and a separate one for the flaggie facing downstream with yellows, white.

[Richard Duvall]

Originally Posted by bludvl_x19

It has a wireless controller that will activate yellow, red, blue, double yellow and green; but it is too small (wii remote sized) for two people to use.

I was thinking that a remote for the person facing upstream with blue and green, and a separate one for the flaggie facing downstream with yellows, white.

I was thinking that wii type controllers could be either built into, or attached to, the flag handles of the yellow, blue and possibly green flags. No need for button pressing at all! If you hold the flag out stationary the corresponding light comes on and if you start waving, it flashes etc.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

I know that this is the Marshals' forum and that this thread has also be started over in the Racers' equivalent but, NOT THIS. As a racer, they are fantastic wet or dry. Taking them away smacks of technophobia and traditionalism. Of course the marshals will still be needed and flags are (currently) the fastest way of deploying a signal but, lights are certainly the way forward.

I race aswell as marshal. So I see it from both sides, like I said as a visibility idea they are fantastic, but there is no emotion or movement attached to them so thy seem very stagnent and react the same no matter what incident where as marshals can convey the type and severity of the incident far better than a light box

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I race aswell as marshal. So I see it from both sides, like I said as a visibility idea they are fantastic, but there is no emotion or movement attached to them so thy seem very stagnent and react the same no matter what incident where as marshals can convey the type and severity of the incident far better than a light box

That's why they are supplementary to marshals though, that way we have the best of both worlds. As you say, electronics cannot convey the emotions of a frantically gesticulating man/woman in orange. However, with run offs becoming bigger (and subsequently marshals posts being moved further away from little ol' me in his low-seated single-seater) the light systems can be placed in areas where a marshal simply can't. Ideally, you would have more lights (placed on both sides of the track at every marshals post). That way it would be completely impossible to miss a flag signal.

I think we agree , I just found your initial comment a little naive as, if we can utilise light technology as well as marshals, why not? Obviously any new technology is going to have initial problems with function, ergonomics etc, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be used (quite the contrary).

With regards to the problem with blue flags on the light boards, would it not be possible to develop a system where above/underneath/alongside the blue light signal the number of the car to whom it applies is also shown? As a non-marshal I don't know the procedure but, I'm assuming when a blue flag is shown a radio call is issued to the specific marshals' post informing them of the car number before the signal is given?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

That's why they are supplementary to marshals though, that way we have the best of both worlds. As you say, electronics cannot convey the emotions of a frantically gesticulating man/woman in orange. However, with run offs becoming bigger (and subsequently marshals posts being moved further away from little ol' me in his low-seated single-seater) the light systems can be placed in areas where a marshal simply can't. Ideally, you would have more lights (placed on both sides of the track at every marshals post). That way it would be completely impossible to miss a flag signal.

I think we agree , I just found your initial comment a little naive as, if we can utilise light technology as well as marshals, why not? Obviously any new technology is going to have initial problems with function, ergonomics etc, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be used (quite the contrary).

With regards to the problem with blue flags on the light boards, would it not be possible to develop a system where above/underneath/alongside the blue light signal the number of the car to whom it applies is also shown? As a non-marshal I don't know the procedure but, I'm assuming when a blue flag is shown a radio call is issued to the specific marshals' post informing them of the car number before the signal is given?

Nope blue flags are at the discretion of that marshal on that post, you have to use youre eyes and judgment to get it right, it's impossible for race control to track 30 cars at the same time with 20 marshal posts, and to have numbers they also need to be visible if marshals are to type them in, you don't really have the time and can't always see numbers

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Nope blue flags are at the discretion of that marshal on that post, you have to use youre eyes and judgment to get it right, it's impossible for race control to track 30 cars at the same time with 20 marshal posts, and to have numbers they also need to be visible if marshals are to type them in, you don't really have the time and can't always see numbers

Considering that this thread is about suggestions then, and with the above information (thank you ascar), one improvement, although far-fetched, would be to have a series of timing lines around the circuit. With all cars having to carry onboard transponders (and with enough timing lines) it would be possible to gauge when a backmarker was being approached by a faster car. Because the data is stored electronically on the timing systems, this could hook up to the electronic 'number board' that I suggested in my previous post. A blue flag and blue light signal could be displayed along with the car/cars it applies to.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

With regards to the problem with blue flags on the light boards, would it not be possible to develop a system where above/underneath/alongside the blue light signal the number of the car to whom it applies is also shown? As a non-marshal I don't know the procedure but, I'm assuming when a blue flag is shown a radio call is issued to the specific marshals' post informing them of the car number before the signal is given?

Nope. In most situations (of which more shortly) we follow and read the race, and display the blue flag as and when we individually deem it necessary. This is one of the things that seems to scare people off flagging - but is one of the things I love about it, you have to concentrate throughout the entire race.

In terms of car numbers (and trying not to replace a good suggestion with a knee-jerk "ah but what if" response) however it is quite likely that we would display a blue flag to a group of cars, especially in a multi-class race. How many numbers would you like on that board?

In certain situations, in certain countries, in certain classes of racing, blue flag instructions are given over the flag radio channel. At the Australian GP this year the driver tracker broke in race control, which resulted in RC giving erroneous instructions to blue empty track or the wrong car; this is what prompted Raikkonen's famous "why are they blue flagging me?" radio call. Having not done the British GP yet (but doing it this year!) I don't have a full grasp of how it's done. Yet.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by Greem

Nope. In most situations (of which more shortly) we follow and read the race, and display the blue flag as and when we individually deem it necessary. This is one of the things that seems to scare people off flagging - but is one of the things I love about it, you have to concentrate throughout the entire race.

Along with ascar, thanks for clearing that up. As I've said, I'm not one of the orange brigade, just a lowly racer, so I don't really know how it all works behind the barriers (other than the understanding I need to comprehend signals, race procedures etc).

Originally Posted by Greem

In terms of car numbers (and trying not to replace a good suggestion with a knee-jerk "ah but what if" response) however it is quite likely that we would display a blue flag to a group of cars, especially in a multi-class race. How many numbers would you like on that board?

All of them . I joke, that would be extremely confusing. It would look like Camelot had hijacked the system and were displaying that week's lottery numbers. I did come up with that suggestion whilst trying to concentrate on my latest 5000 word essay, so forgive it for any glaring 'holes-in-the-theory'. In all seriousness, may that is where just the standard blue light would work. I mean, although I don't really have any experience of being lapped, when I'm approaching a group of backmarkers whilst also racing other cars myself, I certainly know that the blue flags aren't meant for me (although in the traditional sense of the flag, they could be). I would like to think that the backmarkers, if they were in a battle for a number of laps, would suddenly realise that blue flags were now being displayed and that the signal must be applying to them since they hadn't caught any more cars themselves. Saying that, the number of times a sole backmarker has been given a blue flag coming down the slope to Graham Hill only to chop across my bows in the middle of the corner suggests that backmarkers don't always see the flags (I know they aren't meant to just jump out my way before anyone says).

Originally Posted by Greem

In certain situations, in certain countries, in certain classes of racing, blue flag instructions are given over the flag radio channel. At the Australian GP this year the driver tracker broke in race control, which resulted in RC giving erroneous instructions to blue empty track or the wrong car; this is what prompted Raikkonen's famous "why are they blue flagging me?" radio call. Having not done the British GP yet (but doing it this year!) I don't have a full grasp of how it's done. Yet.

That would explain where I got my (erroneous) information from, I remember reading the thread about the Oz GP problem. Thanks Greem

[Richard Duvall]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Considering that this thread is about suggestions then, and with the above information (thank you ascar), one improvement, although far-fetched, would be to have a series of timing lines around the circuit. With all cars having to carry onboard transponders (and with enough timing lines) it would be possible to gauge when a backmarker was being approached by a faster car. Because the data is stored electronically on the timing systems, this could hook up to the electronic 'number board' that I suggested in my previous post. A blue flag and blue light signal could be displayed along with the car/cars it applies to.

If you get to such a complex technical solution, a blue light could be displayed on the car's dashboard and avoid the need for flags/ lights and whether the driver would be able to read the number! At the end of the day, a blue flag is intended to avoid a driver being surprised by a faster car arriving behind; as a former "back of the grid driver", I can say that I was always well aware when the pack was bearing down on me!