F1 tyres

[safc_fan89]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Is it? Red Bull won in Bahrain, but were far behind in Spain. Assuming that, as you argue, a basically good car is still decisive, it raises the question whether Red Bull unlearned and 'uninvented' something between the races in Bahrain and Spain.

It's nothing new that some tracks suit cars better than others. Red Bull have been most competitive at Melbourne and Bahrain which are largely stop-start circuits. Could easily be as much to do with their car than the tyres.

I think it's nice to be able to go into a race weekend not knowing who is going to win. We have that in other series, why not F1? Is it too exciting?

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Good point.
There can be no doubt that the blown diffuser ban is having a much greater effect than many may be giving it credit for.

I totally agree.

The ban on off throttle blown diffusers, clever engine maps that went with it and new exhaust outlet rules are the main reasons RB are struggling a little. They had that mastered and now have to find the stability in the braking area and on initial turn in that they enjoyed such an advantage with last year.

The consequent loss of downforce in that phase is making it really difficult to get the tyres working perfectly and predictably in every situation imho and so it has brought all the teams closer until some bright spark comes up with the answer.

Some teams will moan about it because they no longer have an edge but it's making for great racing and a real challenge for the engineers.

[Marbot]

Pirelli say that they can provide Q3 only tyres, immediately. They also say that the teams are happy enough as things are. Horse-Water?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99766

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Pirelli say that they can provide Q3 only tyres, immediately. They also say that the teams are happy enough as things are. Horse-Water?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99766

Pirelli is hot !

[Marbot]

Smoking!!!

[Redlake27]

http://memoiresdestands.hautetfort.com/archive/201...

I've just read this fascinating interview from the former Michelin boss. Take it with a pinch of salt, as he criticises all the other tyre companies. But this bit made me smile...

Pierre Dupasquier - Goodyear put on pole the one they wanted, the local instance, in agreement with Ecclestone to bring 20,000 more viewers. Leo Mehl (GY boss) was a marketing man, he was not an engineer, Ecclestone is about a man who wants vive la Formula 1, it is attractive, it interests the public, in the course of a event there is dramatic elements that make you want to go or turn on the television.

We spoke recently by phone when he decided to put Pirelli in F1, he wanted to know my feelings. I told him: "you know, they are lovely, engineers are extraordinary, they have genius, and also of fantasy, they are much more pleasant to be with than the French but they have a significant defect, that they could correct today is that they can not do two identical tires.

He said: "I know, I said to Pirelli, give me the same sh*t that you did me when we were together at Brabham, we take the start of the race and you never know what will happen. "

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I watched Bridgestone and Michelin 'manipulate' races by not providing a product that was equal, to each and every one of their teams.

That comparison does not make any sense. Michelin provided all its customers the same tyres and tried to find the best possible compromise, but Bridgestone the choice to focus solely on Ferrari. Until 2005, as that strategy proved to be unsustainable.

Why is what is happening now any different to that?

For the very simple reason that teams were not mandated to use tyres from a specific tyre supplier. If one team did not agree with the tyre strategy, they could simply go to another tyre manufacture as soon as their contract expired or was terminated.

They all have the same tyres, but the chassis is different and the teams have more say in what their chassis does, rather than expecting Michelin or Bridgestone to come up with yet another new tyre to cover up any faults that their chassis may have.

In other words: teams did have the opportunity regain a change of success, despite having issues with (one of the) major components that form the entire package.
The justification for the standardized tyre you put up here is that teams should focus on other components now. If teams are behind in their development work regarding - for instance - chassis, aerodynamics, suspension or powertrain, their season is shot and such is justified. However, you use that very same argument to liberalize the regulations in other areas every time.

Some teams managed to get their car(s) working the tyres better than some other teams did. There's no big mystery there.

There is certainly a mystery regarding the tyres, as teams simply do not understand them very well. It looks as though getting the tyres working is a matter of luck in stead of knowledge, intelligence and creativity, unless teams can indeed unlearn or 'uninvent' something within one or two weeks.

Maybe. Perhaps it is that we can either have F1 as something that is an entertaining sport or we can have F1 simply as a science experiment.

Having done 'science' for most of the week, I prefer to do or watch other things at the weekend.

In other words: the current tyre situation has nothing to do with science, hence knowledge, intelligence and creativity.


However, I do not think it can only be either one of both.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

That comparison does not make any sense. Michelin provided all its customers the same tyres and tried to find the best possible compromise, but Bridgestone the choice to focus solely on Ferrari. Until 2005, as that strategy proved to be unsustainable.

I think you've only given very good reasons why we don't have more than one tyre manufacturer any more.

We had the: 'Michelin's tyre is too wide' debacle. Boy, those regulations are a *****!

Then we had Indy.......

Lots of things, as a governing body, you would not wish to repeat.

Originally Posted by Pingguest

For the very simple reason that teams were not mandated to use tyres from a specific tyre supplier. If one team did not agree with the tyre strategy, they could simply go to another tyre manufacture as soon as their contract expired or was terminated.

Trouble was that only Toyota could afford to buy its way out of a tyre contract.

Originally Posted by Pingguest

In other words: teams did have the opportunity regain a change of success, despite having issues with (one of the) major components that form the entire package.

Only if they could afford to. Did any teams switch tyre make during a season?

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The justification for the standardized tyre you put up here is that teams should focus on other components now. If teams are behind in their development work regarding - for instance - chassis, aerodynamics, suspension or powertrain, their season is shot and such is justified. However, you use that very same argument to liberalize the regulations in other areas every time.

Really?

Originally Posted by Pingguest

There is certainly a mystery regarding the tyres, as teams simply do not understand them very well. It looks as though getting the tyres working is a matter of luck in stead of knowledge, intelligence and creativity, unless teams can indeed unlearn or 'uninvent' something within one or two weeks.

It's not a matter of luck. It's a matter of understanding. There will be teams and drivers that understand the tyres better than others. Which is so much better than finding out in one of the practice sessions that your chosen tyre manufacturer hasn't brought a tyre to do your car justice.

Originally Posted by Pingguest

In other words: the current tyre situation has nothing to do with science, hence knowledge, intelligence and creativity.

I agree. And so, tyre technology, all over the world, has come to a grinding halt.

You need to get over the assertion that technologies not used in F1 are somehow underdeveloped or second rate.

Just because Michelin and Bridgestone went head-to-head in F1 a few years ago, doesn't mean to say that every other road car tyre manufacturer, at that time, went backwards in development. They probably have test rigs too. They may even have made better road car tyres because they made racing tyres for production car based racing series? F1 tyres are far from being comparable with production car racing tyres. And maybe that's why no one is in any particular hurry to become a rival to any other tyre manufacturer in F1?

[Marbot]

In order to stop cars from not going out in Q3, the cars will have an extra set of tyres to qualify with.

BE: "I have said the thing to do is have another set of tyres so at the end of qualifying those tyres disappear and there's nothing you can save. They are forced to change. What we need is another set of tyres and then there will be more qualifying laps done."

http://www.pitpass.com/46352-Exclusi...ays-Ecclestone

Note: It is a Pitpass article and so may need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Could it be done for this weekends race, given that it's only a matter of a Pirelli truck hauling in a few more option tyres?

[chillibowl]

well that bit of news makes me happy.

thanks for posting that link Marbot

[codename_47]

I honestly don't think some people in here would be happy until you had the fastest driver qualifying on pole, second fastest in second, etc and the entire race being a dull parade with no overtaking or excitement of any kind.
I'm sure they'd enjoy the true sport of man and machine romping off into the distance but in the end that would signal the death of the sport as all the casual fans (and a majority of the dedicated too...) would switch off, stop attending and bam, no sponsors or money.

If that's what "purism" is, I want no part of it.

What you need is ways to make different cars fast at different parts of the race.
I'm quite happy with the way F1 is going in 2012, I've sat through the blight that was the refuelling era complaining that racing to turn 1 with one car on the straight and one coming out of pit lane isn't overtaking yet only being fed that year after year by the powers that be and told to deal with it.

In the future, well I'd like it to continue along the lines of 2012 only with more ground effect and less topside aerodynamics.
I don't want to hear the cars rev limited any more, again you need variables to spice up the racing so having some cars very quick in a straight line due to their engine whereas others being more nimble in the corners is classic F1 action that we're being robbed of now.

Would like to see the pitlane closed upon safety car conditions again, that was a good way to jumble up the field and the safest option from the marshals point of view too (no more Vettel managing to make up a place despite everyone seemingly being rev limited type situations either)

Over the course of a season, whatever the rules, the best driver always wins.
It will be the same in 2012 too, for all the excitement I don't think Perez or Maldanado will be champion, no it'll be one of the guys who is expected to be, Vettel, Alonso, Button, Hamilton.
I just want the journey towards that championship to be as interesting and exciting as possible, and for the fans to quit moaning when we finally get the exciting, overtaking filled races we've craved for years!

[Born Racer]

Good points codename_47. I'm not sure for me cars having different strengths and weaknesses at different points of the race is a personal requisite, but I appreciate what that brings us, and in terms of tyres, that's partly what we're seeing now. I'll certainly go along with massively reduced aero.

[Born Racer]

Actually I can summarise my view by saying that I've learnt something this year:

F1 fans moan.

[codename_47]

Now that I look at my post again I got carried away from reading what I saw in the "Next Generation F1" thread a few threads below...

Think I merged the points I wanted to make in both threads into one big maxi-post...whoops!

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Actually I can summarise my view by saying that I've learnt something this year:

F1 fans moan.

This year ?????


Oh, it's been decades.