Sachsenring incident

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

If you thought the first clip showed some bad driving, this shows more of it. The second car to hit the snatch vehicle was even luckier. This was not in the first clip.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xrh...h_auto?fbc=471

Bloody hell that's scary.

I'm puzzled by the timeframe though - the clock is counting down but whilst their appears to be a cut in the filming in which the recovery vehicle arrives and the crew get out and get to the beached vehicle, the clock doesn't seem to reflect this - I'm interested in how quickly the recovery vehicle gets there. It looks to me like it was an early lap of the race as the pack appears to be very much together.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Maybe this is part of the problem - not many (well behaved - as 90% are) drivers appear to go upstairs to whinge about being overtaken under yellows - or the scenario that Nina found herself in etc. If they did perhaps the CoC would feel more obliged to investigate?

Just a thought?

LOL plenty of drivers come upstairs and complain about being overtaken under yellows - the others come to tell us that the other guy only overtook them because they "missed a gear".

What Clerks need are marshals reports on overtaking under yellows to enable them to act.

Backing off is always a difficult one - what is backing off to one driver isn't to another and as on most circuits we don't have timing sectors activated to be able to provide evidence as to what is going on.

[PieMan]

The whole thing started when the car that spun got beached on the kerb and needed snatching. I've said similar things before - it's no good having large run off areas if they are poorly graded and/or uneven. This can cause problems rather than solve them so has to be the next area for track infrastructure improvement on the grounds of safety. Unfortunately just paving everywhere isn't the answer as it doesn't punish mistakes, creates deliberate 4WO opportunities and results in sterile environments like Paul Ricard has become.

Yes, in the old days a car stuck like this might have been sorted out quickly by marshals on foot but, although it wasn't even in it, the size of the gravel trap meant that it was not possible for them to reach it.

[PVDA]

This is a classic example of why you should deploy two vehicles to these sort of recoveries.

One to do the Snatch (as you guys like to call it)

The other to be used as a mobile protective barrier between the race traffic and the incident crew and driver.

[Piglet]

I'm not sure that an additional vehicle on the track causing a further hazard is the answer.

I don't have enough info about timings to make a clear judgment but it appears to me that it's an early lap so the field is together and that the recovery vehicle has been put out very quickly - probably from an ontrack standby position before all of the pack has been passed the incident for the first time. In which case I think the risk of this happening is higher than it would have been if they had waited until the field had all past for the first time and then deployed the vehicle which I think would have been my preference.

We know that there is always a risk that the midfield is unsighted, they have cars between them and the flag points and are more likely to be caught out by the cars ahead seeing the flags and backing off, leading them to back off quickly and on cold tyres it always brings the risk of a lack of control.

Difficult to tell really but it backs up why we usually snatch with the snatch vehicle off the circuit rather than putting a vehicle on the track to provide a hazard without the field being under the control of the safety car.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Piglet

What Clerks need are marshals reports on overtaking under yellows to enable them to act.

Is it that you cannot act just because of a single drivers complaint? I assume that you need corrobative evidence as it were - which is where we come in?

Purely as a matter of interest - if a driver comes up complaining of an overtake under yellows, there is no marshal report - but that driver has in car footage of the incident - can that footage be used?

Originally Posted by Piglet

LOL plenty of drivers come upstairs and complain about being overtaken under yellows - the others come to tell us that the other guy only overtook them because they "missed a gear".

We had a friend racing at "old" Snett a couple of years back - during Q loads of people were going 4wo at Sears. The PC wasn't bothering to report as far as we could tell. Everyone as moaning about everyone else - but not one person took it upstairs - which would have been the answer I guess. Our friend had in car of the 4 people in front of him doing this lap after lap - could a CoC have acted on that - or does it have to be with a corner report?

Originally Posted by Piglet

Backing off is always a difficult one - what is backing off to one driver isn't to another and as on most circuits we don't have timing sectors activated to be able to provide evidence as to what is going on.

Yes I can see that really being a difficult one! It might be in Nina's case that it could be argued that she backed off too far and it was her own fault.

I can't see an easy answer to that one tbh - glad I am not a CoC LOL

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by PieMan

Yes, in the old days a car stuck like this might have been sorted out quickly by marshals on foot but, although it wasn't even in it, the size of the gravel trap meant that it was not possible for them to reach it.

A very good point well made - there are some very large gravel traps and run off areas appearing - and gravel is also such a pig to run through.

Looking at the incident on the video - in my humble, and not very learned position;

1) I would have expected to snatch a single seater with the green JCB type vehicle which was clearly doing exactly that at the end of the video. That way it could be lifted and the snatched from the trap rather than trackside, keeping the track unobstructed - exactly as Piglet suggests.

2) If no JCB available then I would expect a Safety Car as the incident vehicle is trackside. This does appear to have been done?

3) If no SC available and the car is stuck in a dangerous place (like here) then a Red Flag to protect everyone - not ideal I know.

4) The driver of the white car is a muppet - unless of course he had a mechanical failure.


What is interesting is that the video title says "Accident under Safety Car" so it appears that the incident did actually occur under SC. Also a JCB WAS available as it is clearly in shot with the yellow car hanging from it's boom towards the end of the video!

Very strange incident - but as always we haven't any of the facts behind it to really understand what was going on.

[terence bower]

I think incidents such as this only demonstrate the importance of having an SC on circuit during a snatch.The Safety Car dictates the speed in the area the snatch is taking place,the driver using everything available to ensure the Marshals safety.

[numbersix]

We can talk about safety cars and gravel traps until we're blue in the face. What we are trying to do is create a mechanical solution to a psychological problem - drivers taking no notice of waved yellows.

The rules are quite clear; slow down, be in control and don't overtake.

If this rule was clamped down hard - really hard - zero tolerance, no excuses, with the relentless lack-of-compassion of a speed camera, then the problem would soon go away.

CoCs are limited in what they can do. This has to be directed at MSA level, but in truth I think they are worried that drivers will leave the sport if measures are too draconian. My view is to let those self-serving, dangerous idiots go. We don't want them.

Rant over.

[SteveR]

Ignoring the standard of driving (which I agree was disgraceful), the manufacturers of the tubs should be given a serious pat on the back.

The first car lifted the Touareg a few inches off the ground. The second car lifted it a couple of feet into the air. In both cases, despite having hit about 3 tonnes of 4x4, the drivers got out and walked away unaided. To stand that sort of punishment, those tubs must be seriously well made!

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I'm not sure that an additional vehicle on the track causing a further hazard is the answer.

Lessens the chances of a marshal being hit by an errant race car if parked in the correct location.

If a race car happens to hit it then there's a fair chance it would've hit a marshal if it wasn't there.

At least the marshal in the car is offered the protection the car provides which is 1000% more than the guys on foot would have.

I'd love to know the proper time frames for this and what flags the posts prior were displaying.

Clarification of the Safety Car status at the time would be nice as well.

[NewYankee01]

Yet another occasion where use of the "code 60" flag might have neutralised and slowed down things better. Maybe what we have now yellows for first lap of safety car situations then code 60 then yellows when safety car is due to come in would give mutliple steps for officials to dish out less or more serious penalties with no excuses. A yellow is a very wide ranging meaning of hazard, maybe we need something in between red and yellows again with a better revised format.

Apologies for dragging up old news but standardised use of "code 60" flags in all FIA snatch/safety car situations may have avoided this.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by PVDA

I'd love to know the proper time frames for this and what flags the posts prior were displaying.

Clarification of the Safety Car status at the time would be nice as well.

Had another look - despite the title suggesting it was a safety car I cannot see a SC board at the waved yellows post.

Also - from the beginning of the video a waved green after the incident is apparent in the shot, so the evidence points to that this was actually not under SC at all, but under race conditions with a local yellow.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

A yellow is a very wide ranging meaning of hazard

And that is all that needs to be said. We don't need umpteen gradations of flag to show how serious an incident is, we just need drivers to take notice of the ones that exist already and make sure that if they're passing an incident that they are in total control of the car. The two in this incident (and some of the others too) clearly were not.

[yellowspanner]

Apologies for stupidity - what is a code 60 flag?